From sentto-6247521-803-1021572234-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu May 16 18:03:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GI3Mt01262 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:03:22 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-803-1021572234-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 18:03:54 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 16 May 2002 18:03:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 85988 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2002 18:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:03:51 -0000 Received: from du-035-0077.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.143.77] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178PbR-000BD5-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:03:49 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c1fd04$07a2f0a0$4d8f7ed4@oemcomputer> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:25:09 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: TechTalk 43 Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IMAPbase: 1021493825 2258 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ondine Green" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:50 AM Subject: [UCP-List] Re: TechTalk 43 > Thanks to Alex's wonderful achievement in getting the complete series of > KP's TechTalks online, I've been able to read some of his later writings - > and I must say, I'm *very* impressed by #43, "Beyond Me To We". Thanks Ondine, I haven't read that in a while. > > The main problem I've had with most schools of enlightment is that > they're... well, for want of a better word and no offence to anyone who has > loved ones with that condition, *autistic*. They seem to believe that, if > one is enlightened enough, one can get to "cause over the universe" (or > whatever) solely on one's own. Yes, I used to solidly believe that *I* would go extertior, *I* would survive after death, *I* was the be all and end all. Having the good fortune of UCP I disintegrated that nonsense. Since then, most of the *I* that i have seen has just been this lifetime's personality. > > This inevitably leads, I think, to the belief that the highest level of > enlightenment is to be able to live completely in your own hallucinations > and to make them impervious to anything happening outside your own head. Yes, and imagine the horror of living like that, in a void, forever out of time. Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh! ;( ) > Possibly fine if you have someone else to *feed* you and take care of all > your physical-universe needs, but I don't think I'm ready for invalid status > yet! And I've yet to see proof one that anyone can actually *transcend* the > need for a physical body to interact with the physical universe. (Not that > I'd even want to. I *like* this $2.95 material world, most of teh time.) > > I firmly believe that most of reality is created collectively and can only > be changed collectively - and KP seems to be saying that the only way into > the higher reaches is to do the process collectively, that the higher levels > of enlightenment deal with one's interaction with other consciousnesses. Yes, after reading TT 43, I recommend you also read the discussion KP and I had regarding the tones above 10, discussed on this list as "[UCP-List] New Tone Level?". It's kinda like the next installment. > That seems far more sensible and logical to me; also, less dependent on a > very Western concept of the individual as an inviolate, indivisible, > self-sufficient soul (which is where I think Scientology really falls down). Yes, along with the rest of planet earth. With its manic desire for INDIVIDUAL ISOLATION, almost a fait accomplis! > > Comments? Flamage? ;-) > > ondine > Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-804-1021573131-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu May 16 18:18:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.85]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GIIJg13245 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 18:18:20 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-804-1021573131-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 18:18:51 -0000 X-Sender: dn6246@myrealbox.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 16 May 2002 18:18:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 28547 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 18:18:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2002 18:18:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-send.myrealbox.com) (192.108.102.143) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 18:18:50 -0000 Received: from myrealbox.com dn6246@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [172.149.175.253] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NIMS SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.6 $ on Novell NetWare; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:18:49 -0600 Message-ID: <3CE3F804.7393F6CD@myrealbox.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ru,uk To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com From: Alex Buksdorf X-Yahoo-Profile: dn6246 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:18:44 -0400 Subject: [UCP-List] No More Free E-mail? Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 Somebody forwarded this to me. I don't know if this just a rumour or not. Alex B. > Hey everybody, > I was forwarded this information and I just had to > share, is this really true? > > POSTAGE INCREASE: > > Postage will go up the end of June 2002 from 34 > cents to 37 cents. It will be from 9% to 12% rate > increase. > > But this isn't all. No more free E-mail! We > knew > this was coming - Bill 602P will permit the Federal > Government to charge a 5-cent charge on every > delivered > E-mail. > > Please read the following carefully if you > intend to > stay online and continue using E-mail. The last few > months have revealed an alarming trend in the > Government > of the United States attempting to quietly push > through > legislation that will affect our use of the > Internet. > > Under proposed legislation, the US Postal > Service > will be attempting to bill E-mail users out > of "alternative postage fees." Bill 602P will > permit the Federal Government to charge a 5-cent > surcharge on every e-mail delivered, by billing > Internet > Service Providers at source. The consumer would then > be > billed in turn by the ISP. > > Washington DC lawyer Richard Stepp is working > without pay to prevent this legislation from > becoming > law. The US Postal Service is claiming lost revenue, > due > to the proliferation of E-mail, is costing nearly > $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have > noticed > their recent ad campaign: > "There is nothing like a letter." > > Since the average person received about 10 > pieces of > E-mail per day in 1998, the cost of the typical > individual would be an additional 50 cents a day or > over > $180 per year -- above and beyond their regular > Internet > costs. Note that this would be money paid directly > to > the US Postal Service for a service they do not even > provide. The whole point of the Internet is > democracy > and noninterference. You are already paying an > exorbitant > price for snail mail because of bureaucratic > inefficiency. > > It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to > be > delivered from coast to coast. If the US Postal > Service > is allowed to tinker with E-mail it will mark the > end of > the "free" Internet in the United States. > Congressional > representative, Tony Schnell (R) has even suggested > a "$20-$40 per month surcharge on all Internet > service" > above and beyond the governments proposed E-mail > charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have > ignored the story the only exception being the > Washingtonian which called the idea of E-mail > surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" > (March > 6th, 1999 Editorial) > > Do not sit by and watch your freedom erode away! > > Send this E-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and > tell > all your friends and relatives to write their > congressional representative and say "NO" to > Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your > time > and could very well be instrumental in killing a > bill we > do not want. PLEASE FORWARD! -- ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-805-1021577512-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu May 16 19:31:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.75]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GJVK517164 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:31:20 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-805-1021577512-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 19:31:52 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 16 May 2002 19:31:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 93935 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 19:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2002 19:31:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 19:31:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 19:31:50 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3CE3F804.7393F6CD@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:31:49 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: No More Free E-mail? Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 --- In ucplist@y..., Alex Buksdorf wrote: > Somebody forwarded this to me. > I don't know if this just a rumour or not. > > Alex B. > It's a chain mail at least 5 years old (a bit updated). Amazing, how it survived all those years. more at http://www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/xemailtax.html Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-806-1021578512-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu May 16 19:48:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GJm0529523 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:48:01 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-806-1021578512-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 19:48:33 -0000 X-Sender: hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 16 May 2002 19:48:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 298 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 19:48:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2002 19:48:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 19:48:31 -0000 Received: (from hydragon@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4GJlrs16310 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 16 May 2002 19:47:53 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20020516194753.A25518@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> References: <3CE3F804.7393F6CD@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CE3F804.7393F6CD@myrealbox.com>; from dn6246@myrealbox.com on Thu, May 16, 2002 at 02:18:44PM -0400 From: "A. Hydragon" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:47:53 +0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] No More Free E-mail? Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 02:18:44PM -0400, Alex Buksdorf wrote: > Somebody forwarded this to me. > I don't know if this just a rumour or not. > > Alex B. It's a hoax/virus. Pass it on. :) *-hydragon-* ------------------------------------------ Directory Searched the web for email tax hoax. Results 1 - 10 of about 11,300. Search took 0.30 seconds. Bill 602P Hoax & Toll Charges for Internet Access ... The United States Congress is considering a 5 cent tax on email. See the warnings here. More recent versions of the hoax have added on a warning about that ... www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/emailtax.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages Internet / Email Tax Hoaxes ... of this hoax borrows from the older tax hoaxes. This version of the email tax hoax reads as follows: Subject: US stamps for e-mails Please read the following ... www.stiller.com/inttax.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages Bill 602P 5-Cent Postal Tax on Email - Netlore Archive - Federal ... ... debated the nonexistent federal bill on October 8, 2000. (If it's any consolation, they both came out against it.) See "Email Tax Hoax Fouls NY Senate Debate.". ... urbanlegends.about.com/library/blemtax2.htm - 32k - 15 May 2002 - Cached - Similar pages Bill 602P Email Tax Hoax Fouls NY Senate Debate ... Email Tax Hoax Fouls NY Senate Debate. Further Adventures of 'Bill 602P'. Related Resources. ... Elsewhere on the Web. ... urbanlegends.about.com/library/blnydebate.htm - 32k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from urbanlegends.about.com ] [ TenVolt Distractions. Email Tax Hoax ] ... Chain Letter Hoax: A Tax on E-mail. You may have received ... chain letter on; it is a hoax. Subject: CDN Gov't Plans to Charge 5 cents per email (per Bill 602P). ... www.tenvolt.com/distractions/taxhoax.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages CNN.com - Tax on e-mail? Long-running hoax endures - April 1, ... Skip to main content. CNN.com, Tax on e-mail? Long-running hoax endures. (CNN ... www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/04/01/e.mail.hoax/ - 14k - Cached - Similar pages KK Campbell: "Post Office email tax" hoax -- April 28 1999 ... WORLD'S GREATEST RUMOR MILL STRIKES AGAIN "Post Office email tax" a hoax that rips across the country. ... www.kkc.net/toronto-star/1999/ts0428.shtml - 19k - Cached - Similar pages Email Tax Hoax SESSIONS DISPELS RUMORS OF E-MAIL TAX. (WASHINGTON) US Congressman Pete Sessions (R-Dallas ... www.house.gov/sessions/press/00-07-06-emailtax.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages Washingtonian Online - The e-mail tax is a hoax. It's false. Not ... ... E-MAIL TAX IS A HOAX. ... The message that is apparently out over the Internet about an "editorial" by The Washingtonian supporting an e-mail tax is a hoax. ... www.washingtonian.com/about/emailhoax.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages "FCC Modem Tax" Hoax - UM Virus Busters Virus Busters Home. The FCC Modem Tax Email Warning Is A Hoax. by Bruce P. Burrell (bpb@umich.edu) for the UM Virus Busters (virus.busters@umich.edu) ... www.itd.umich.edu/virusbusters/hoaxes/fcc.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages Result Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next _______________________________ Google Search Search within results Dissatisfied with your results? Help us improve. Try your query on: AltaVista Excite Lycos Yahoo! _________________________________________________________________ Google Home - Advertise with Us - Search Solutions - News and Resources - Language Tools - Jobs, Press, Cool Stuff... ©2002 Google -- hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-807-1021587075-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu May 16 22:10:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GMAhW21016 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:10:43 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-807-1021587075-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 22:11:15 -0000 X-Sender: navigator10@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 16 May 2002 22:11:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 41672 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 22:11:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2002 22:11:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 22:11:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 22:11:12 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "mrnavigator10" X-Originating-IP: 213.122.198.1 X-Yahoo-Profile: mrnavigator10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:11:12 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: A Cool experience Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 --- In ucplist@y..., "bkrawage" wrote: > > Yesterday for the first time in about 8 days I had a 24 minute > session. I have been diagnosed with diabetes so I've pretty much been > working on my diet and cutting back on sugar and other really good > foods. So I let my sessions slide for a bit... > > Anyway getting back in session was very cool and again I had some > major cogs. For example today driving home from a clients offices > about 28 miles from home I experienced an awareness of self so > comfortable it was like nothing else I had ever experienced before > and best of all it happened purely on automatic. I just realized I > was aware and I was aware. I hope that makes sense!! > > Anyway thought I'd share that experience it was just extremely cool. > > BK Very cool and your win is very real to me BK I have had similar experiences and I totally know what you mean. Sooner or later that crration of yours will persist..if you want it to. Best N10 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-808-1021588054-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu May 16 22:27:02 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.89]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GMR2W02102 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:27:02 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-808-1021588054-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 May 2002 22:27:34 -0000 X-Sender: ondinegreen@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 16 May 2002 22:27:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 70093 invoked from network); 16 May 2002 22:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 16 May 2002 22:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (207.68.163.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 May 2002 22:27:31 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 16 May 2002 15:27:30 -0700 Received: from 130.195.196.201 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 May 2002 22:27:30 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 May 2002 22:27:30.0847 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE04F2F0:01C1FD28] From: "Ondine Green" X-Originating-IP: [130.195.196.201] MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:27:30 +0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: We now have a co-witness page Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 >From: Net Prophet >Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com >To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: We now have a co-witness page >Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 00:04:20 -0700 > >Justin wrote: > >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > >> Netscape isn't seeing the site properly for me. > > > >When i first checked it out this morning on netscape > >communicator 4.73 i had the same problem. T >I'm using Netscape 4.79. > >BUT, if I use Internet Explorer, I *DO* see the text! I'm finding exactly the same thing; when I got home and checked it out on IE, it works fine. I'd like to congratulate Justin on his page; we need more of those. I think I'll get one together myself, as soon as I've finished the four thousand other things I want to do. ;-) I also want to add that I think he's doing exactly the right thing by completely disassociating UCP from Scientology. If we *really* want to get this discovery out there, the last thing we want to do is to give the impression that we're linked to scienos or ex-scienos. That market is far too small, anyway; which is why the break from a.c.t might be the beginning of proper expansion. ondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-809-1021599723-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 01:41:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4H1fVk10029 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 01:41:31 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-809-1021599723-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 01:42:03 -0000 X-Sender: justintonation@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 01:42:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 36347 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 01:42:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 01:42:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 01:42:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 01:42:02 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020516160511.A1879@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "justintonation" X-Originating-IP: 63.60.243.133 X-Yahoo-Profile: justintonation MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:42:01 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: We now have a co-witness page Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 --- In ucplist@y..., "A. Hydragon" wrote: > On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 12:04:20AM -0700, Net Prophet wrote: > > Justin wrote: > > >> > > >> Justin wrote: > > >> >http://universalconsciouspractice.bravepages.com/ > > >> > > >> Netscape isn't seeing the site properly for me. > > > > > >When i first checked it out this morning on netscape > > >communicator 4.73 i had the same problem. The page had no > > >text on it. Now when I look at it it is fine. I have no idea what the > > >problem is or was. If it happenns again please tell me what > > >version of netscape you were using. Very strange. > > > > > >Justin > > > > > > I checked it again and still don't see text. > > If I VIEW / PAGE SOURCE I see it, but > > it still does not display on the page itself. > > > > I'm using Netscape 4.79. > > > > BUT, if I use Internet Explorer, I *DO* see the text! > > > > It's probably my original garbage code, produced by > > Frontpage 98, updated by Frontpage 2000, and then > > eaten and spit out by whatever HTML editor you use, > > which is the problem. It's amazing that it works at all! Hi Hydragon, thanks for the info. I just downloaded mactidy and will get cleaning pronto. : ) Justin P.S Ondine! You put your email address in the url section on the co-witness page. Do you want me to put it in the correct place place for you? > The bravepages HTML does not have a DOCTYPE declaration at the beginning. > Without that some browsers will become confused, the results > unpredictable. > > It's easy enough to remedy. Either snarf and patch one in, or better yet > -- get the utility "Tidy" from W3.org and run the code through that. > Tidy will not only put in the proper headers, but fix code errors too. > > *-hydragon-* > -- > hydragon@s... > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-810-1021606191-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 03:29:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.82]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4H3TJ614713 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:29:19 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-810-1021606191-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 03:29:52 -0000 X-Sender: hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 03:29:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 58744 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 03:29:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 03:29:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 03:29:50 -0000 Received: (from hydragon@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4H3TBw12484 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:29:11 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20020517032911.A25281@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> References: <20020516160511.A1879@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from justintonation@hotmail.com on Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:42:01AM -0000 From: "A. Hydragon" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 03:29:11 +0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: We now have a co-witness page Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 On Fri, May 17, 2002 at 01:42:01AM -0000, justintonation wrote: > Hi Hydragon, thanks for the info. > > I just downloaded mactidy and will get cleaning pronto. : ) > > Justin You are welcome, Justin. And thanks for the website. It's both beautiful and useful. The flavor will be much sweeter for folks that do not have a background of Scn. I see a resource to take UCP mainstream. *-hydragon-* > > The bravepages HTML does not have a DOCTYPE declaration > at the beginning. > > Without that some browsers will become confused, the results > > unpredictable. > > > > It's easy enough to remedy. Either snarf and patch one in, or > better yet > > -- get the utility "Tidy" from W3.org and run the code through > that. > > Tidy will not only put in the proper headers, but fix code errors > too. -- hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-811-1021618287-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 06:50:55 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4H6osu01166 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 06:50:54 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-811-1021618287-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 06:51:27 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 06:51:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 6948 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 06:51:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 06:51:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 06:51:25 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.157]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA14357 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 01:50:33 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020516234732.010dce40@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:47:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: TechTalk 43 Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 At 11:50 PM 5/15/2002 +0000, you wrote: >Thanks to Alex's wonderful achievement in getting the complete series of >KP's TechTalks online, BRAVO! >I've been able to read some of his later writings - >and I must say, I'm *very* impressed by #43, "Beyond Me To We". Way Cool! >The main problem I've had with most schools of enlightment is that >they're... well, for want of a better word and no offence to anyone who has >loved ones with that condition, *autistic*. They seem to believe that, if >one is enlightened enough, one can get to "cause over the universe" (or >whatever) solely on one's own. Yes! >This inevitably leads, I think, to the belief that the highest level of >enlightenment is to be able to live completely in your own hallucinations >and to make them impervious to anything happening outside your own head. >Possibly fine if you have someone else to *feed* you and take care of all >your physical-universe needs, but I don't think I'm ready for invalid status >yet! And I've yet to see proof one that anyone can actually *transcend* the >need for a physical body to interact with the physical universe. (Not that >I'd even want to. I *like* this $2.95 material world, most of teh time.) Yes. >I firmly believe that most of reality is created collectively and can only >be changed collectively - and KP seems to be saying that the only way into >the higher reaches is to do the process collectively, that the higher levels >of enlightenment deal with one's interaction with other consciousnesses. That's how it seems to me now. The ongoing emergence of the UCPeony reflects that. >That seems far more sensible and logical to me; also, less dependent on a >very Western concept of the individual as an inviolate, indivisible, >self-sufficient soul (which is where I think Scientology really falls down). > >Comments? Flamage? ;-) > >ondine Way Cool! KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-812-1021634447-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 11:20:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HBKJR12835 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:20:19 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-812-1021634447-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 11:20:47 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 11:20:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 6648 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 11:20:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 11:20:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 11:20:46 -0000 Received: from du-031-0230.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.142.230] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178fmu-000Iy7-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 May 2002 12:20:44 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c1fd94$e2445240$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: References: <006f01c1fc32$15e0c160$d98f7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE3AE2B.C989363C@directus.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:31:53 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 ----- Original Message ----- From: "judy" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom > Hi Neal, > > Your words stroke a familiar note in me. :) > > "I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to > but failed." > > Also your comment about how life keeps putting forth the same issues > until there is some resolution. > > That has certainly been the case for me Excellent.... so pray tell? > and I hope you will write more > about this. So give me something to respond to. :-) > > Judy > Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-813-1021636182-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 11:49:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HBn9R28956 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 11:49:09 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-813-1021636182-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 11:49:42 -0000 X-Sender: maya@directus.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 11:49:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 65930 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 11:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 11:49:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO directus.net) (205.245.103.241) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 11:49:40 -0000 Received: from directus.net [12.150.140.65] by directus.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A058ADD2010A; Fri, 17 May 2002 07:58:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE4EE50.CB30FC82@directus.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com References: <006f01c1fc32$15e0c160$d98f7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE3AE2B.C989363C@directus.net> <000b01c1fd94$e2445240$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> From: judy X-Yahoo-Profile: judithw1941 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:49:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 Hi Neal, When reading your note about giving you something to respond to I realized that I am just not ready yet for that sort of self disclosure but I do appreciate your interest. I did give some thought to just how automatic my responses are and that my perception is frequently far from accurate. I thought about the experiences that keep reoccurring. I reflected upon ways that my ego has no wisdom at all and seems to be in control of me rather than the opposite. I particularly thought about this as I recalled experiences/incidenses from the past where I had lousy judgment. Judy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-814-1021645122-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 14:18:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HEI9H18191 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 14:18:09 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-814-1021645122-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 14:18:42 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 14:18:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 4403 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 14:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 14:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 14:18:39 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.165]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28549 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 09:17:58 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020517071502.010ed820@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3CE4EE50.CB30FC82@directus.net> References: <006f01c1fc32$15e0c160$d98f7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE3AE2B.C989363C@directus.net> <000b01c1fd94$e2445240$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:15:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Judy wrote: >Hi Neal, > >When reading your note about giving you something to respond to I >realized that I am just not ready yet for that sort of self disclosure >but I do appreciate your interest. OK. You HAVE told us: ================== you had cancer you had chemo you had radiation you stopped radiation you have done some UCP you have an adult son you are not ready for "that sort" of self disclosure I'd say you've given us LOTS to respond to! I'm curious how you think you are NOT disclosing your self. And WHY how you FEEL about all this is apparently "private". >I did give some thought to just how automatic my responses >are and that my perception is frequently far from accurate. Excellent! That MIGHT BE a very ACCURATE perception! And move you rapidly forward! >I thought about the experiences that keep reoccurring. Excellent! They are . . . where you ARE! >I reflected upon ways that my ego has no wisdom at all >and seems to be in control of me rather than the opposite. Excellent! Where might you be? >I particularly thought about this as I recalled >experiences/incidenses from the past where I had lousy judgment. > >Judy Sounds to me like a VERY fertile field for self-disclosure . . . to YOURSELF! Offhand, I'd say you are starting to get the knack of doing UCP effectively. You may not have resolved much yet, but you are definitely *LOOKING* in the right direction! Best Wishes, KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-815-1021656961-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 17:37:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.65]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HHb3b17405 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 17:37:04 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-815-1021656961-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 17:37:35 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 17:35:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 19639 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 17:35:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 17:35:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 17:35:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 17:35:58 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000b01c1fd94$e2445240$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 17:35:57 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 This phrase in Judy's post(was it a quote from somewhere?) really struck me: > "I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to > but failed." It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to it. "I won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) So what's up with this little snippet? Is there indeed an internal contradiction? IMHO, there is. If one is trying and failing there must be some resistance. One is fighting with something. And that is a direct opposite of acceptance. Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal basis. Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? Here's a quote from a interesting little book called "Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas (read it at http://www.lcars.eu.org/sarah.peter.nelson/lazyman) "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going higher." I think the guy speaketh the truth. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-816-1021665167-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 19:52:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HJqEj13461 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:52:14 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-816-1021665167-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 19:52:48 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 19:52:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 3056 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 19:11:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 19:11:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 19:11:06 -0000 Received: from du-031-0179.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.142.179] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178n84-0009ii-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 May 2002 20:11:04 +0100 Message-ID: <013601c1fdd6$958da040$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: "UCP List" References: <006f01c1fc32$15e0c160$d98f7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE3AE2B.C989363C@directus.net> <000b01c1fd94$e2445240$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE4EE50.CB30FC82@directus.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:19:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 ----- Original Message ----- From: "judy" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom > Hi Neal, > > When reading your note about giving you something to respond to I > realized that I am just not ready yet for that sort of self disclosure Ooops, you just did tell me something quite profound. :) Hehe, ve hef many vays of making you talk! ;_( )) > but I do appreciate your interest. OK, its just another area of potential learning, for you and me both, and for all the readers! You are a unique individual and no one else has seen what you have seen from your viewpoint. > > I did give some thought to just how automatic my responses are and that > my perception is frequently far from accurate. Cool, so you are already looking and seeing things about yourself. The statement above gives you something to compare to.....You're on your way! :) > I thought about the > experiences that keep reoccurring. I reflected upon ways that my ego > has no wisdom at all and seems to be in control of me rather than the > opposite. What do *you* mean when you refer to the 'ego'? i.e. what is your concept/understanding of the term? please no dictionary defs! And how is that distinguished from *you*? Remebering of course that there are NO wrong answers! > I particularly thought about this as I recalled > experiences/incidenses from the past where I had lousy judgment. We all could probably say we have lousy judgement with the benefit of hindsight, but it is the quality of hindsight that provides new opportunities to discover something new about ourselves. Much like you have described above. So you did tell us about you after all. :) > > Judy And just to hammer the point home, I almost didn't post my reply to you (the last reply on this thread), as I didn't have much to say or respond to. However now we've got something else going......way cool! Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-817-1021665295-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 19:54:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HJsPj14876 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:54:26 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-817-1021665295-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 19:54:57 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 19:54:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 35765 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 19:39:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 19:39:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 19:39:46 -0000 Received: by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4HJd7Z01710; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:39:07 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:39:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 On Fri, 17 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: From: "punkfloyd.rm" > This phrase in Judy's post(was it a quote from somewhere?) really > struck me: > > > "I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to > > but failed." > > It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest > time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to it. "I ^^^^^^ > won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) Good one, Oleg! Whether intentional or dyslexic, I'll add that one to my vocabulary. ;) > So what's up with this little snippet? Is there indeed an internal > contradiction? IMHO, there is. If one is trying and failing there > must be some resistance. One is fighting with something. And that is > a direct opposite of acceptance. > > Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal > basis. Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a > very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And > equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? Yes, yes -- all this turmoil is going on. All this rationalization, negotiation, idealism, failure in manifesting ideals, etc. But who is witnessing all this? By comparing this (present) with what used to be or what might be, one detatches, gets unstuck from this junk. The fundamental "contradiction" is really a duality: the being experiencing the objects of his creation. (Many of his thought-objects are in conflict). > Here's a quote from a interesting little book called "Lazy Man's > Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas (read it at > http://www.lcars.eu.org/sarah.peter.nelson/lazyman) > > "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, > and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going higher." Yes, that's lovely. But there's a further point. Who's doing the loving is who you really are. That's the witness, peeping into this world of time and turmoil. > I think the guy speaketh the truth. Probably too lazy to lie. . . Light, abner > Best, > Oleg abner@sdf.lonestar.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-818-1021665541-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 20:02:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HK27j21890 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 20:02:07 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-818-1021665541-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 19:59:02 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 19:59:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 13079 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 19:58:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 19:58:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 19:58:59 -0000 Received: from du-031-0216.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.142.216] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178nsQ-000EUX-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 May 2002 20:58:58 +0100 Message-ID: <016001c1fddd$463717e0$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: "UCP List" References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 20:57:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 ----- Original Message ----- From: "punkfloyd.rm" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance > This phrase in Judy's post(was it a quote from somewhere?) really > struck me: Sorry! I'll say it quieter next time. ;-) > > > "I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to > > but failed." > > It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest > time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to it. "I > won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) Yes. Read the original post from me to you, I was paying you a compliment! Thread: Oleg's Wisdom Date: 15/05/02 Time: 18:01 > > So what's up with this little snippet? Is there indeed an internal > contradiction? IMHO, there is. If one is trying and failing there > must be some resistance. One is fighting with something. And that is > a direct opposite of acceptance. Exactly. That was the point I was making. > > Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal > basis. Not exactly what I was describing. I was comparing two experiences and the statement you quote was as a result of that. > Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a > very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And > equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? No. It's about balance and composure. Remaining undisturbed by an experience. Letting the ripples pass without doing *something* to them. A quote from one of the after session discussion between KP and myself ------------------start quote------------------ [me] >A lot of what I am experiencing now relates back to my new found 'inner peace'. [KP] Way Cool! One hopes the walls are built upon the foundation! >That term tho is inadequate. It is more like the difference between >ease and dis-ease. By ease I mean less prone to ripples, to be affected by >external sources/forces etc. No dampening fields required.:-) Yes. The ocean is NOT concerned that waves may damage it! >I also got to looking at flows, specifically inward flows and how these are >handled differently depending on how much identity/non-identity there is. >That the more identity, personality/attitudes/wonky bits, the more a flow >will be changed, and the less identity, the more a flow will just be >reflected or allowed to pass without change. Like on the Four Conditions >scale of ALTER-ISNESS and ISNESS. ------------------end quote------------------ > > Here's a quote from a interesting little book called "Lazy Man's > Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas (read it at > http://www.lcars.eu.org/sarah.peter.nelson/lazyman) > > "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, > and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going higher." > > I think the guy speaketh the truth. I disagree. One can only look calmly at events if one can look calmly at events, which is dependent upon beingness. That beingness is reflected in the physical universe by what we DO (as who we are). Equanimity and acceptance only come about through a change in beingness, because by examination and integration of the compulsions and hidden influences in our lives, one no longer has to compulsively *affect* what is experienced. i.e. acceptance or allowing to be as it is. I am always wary of affirmation as it is an effort to change beingness through belief, and I'm sure we're all familiar with the effects this has in the realm of duality. > > Best, > Oleg Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-819-1021670974-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 21:29:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.70]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HLT3m02419 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 21:29:03 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-819-1021670974-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 21:29:35 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 21:29:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 68878 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 21:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 21:29:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 21:29:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 21:29:31 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:29:30 -0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest > > time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to it. "I > ^^^^^^ > > won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) > > Good one, Oleg! Whether intentional or dyslexic, I'll add that one to my > vocabulary. ;) It's the dyslexic one :) > > > So what's up with this little snippet? Is there indeed an internal > > contradiction? IMHO, there is. If one is trying and failing there > > must be some resistance. One is fighting with something. And that is > > a direct opposite of acceptance. > > > > Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal > > basis. Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a > > very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And > > equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? > > Yes, yes -- all this turmoil is going on. All this rationalization, > negotiation, idealism, failure in manifesting ideals, etc. But who is > witnessing all this? Obvious answer: Me. But that's too boring. So, lately I have been thinking the situation is even more straightforward than that: Witnessing simply happens. Asking "who is witnessing what?" is like asking "Where a worm's head ends and the tail begins?" (yeah, I know worms are not very appetizing analogy, but it's hard to find an appealing and clear metaphor. Substitute Humpty-Dumpty if you like) And another litarary quote: "Everything is in the hands of Allah" "But don't forget, the entire world, including Allah, is in the mind of Buddha!" "Yes, but the mind of Buddha is in the hands of Allah." V.Pelevin (quoting by memory) > By comparing this (present) with what used to be or > what might be, one detatches, gets unstuck from this junk. Or, to go with the worm analogy, compare the head of a worm to its tail long enough, and you'll find the worm :) > > The fundamental "contradiction" is really a duality: the being > experiencing the objects of his creation. > Or duality between cause and effect. Or between worm's head and worm's tail =) > (Many of his thought-objects are in conflict). Yes and no. Conflicts are also a consideration. If a tree falls in a forest and noone sees it, is there a conflict? :) > > Here's a quote from a interesting little book called "Lazy Man's > > Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas (read it at > > http://www.lcars.eu.org/sarah.peter.nelson/lazyman) > > > > "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, > > and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going higher." > > Yes, that's lovely. But there's a further point. Who's doing the loving is > who you really are. Loving aka acceptance, IMHO, is not something you actively *do*. It's just an absence of resistance. Therefore a lover is not needed. Like Aikido - you don't throw the attacker, you just cease to resist his natural tendency to fall. If you are not there at all, even better! > That's the witness, peeping into this world of time > and turmoil. All while enthusiastically creating it. A lovely situation indeed :) > > > I think the guy speaketh the truth. > > Probably too lazy to lie. . . LSD does that to you =) Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-820-1021672845-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 22:00:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HM0Bm27434 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 22:00:11 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-820-1021672845-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 22:00:45 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 22:00:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 66427 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 22:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 22:00:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 22:00:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 22:00:44 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016001c1fddd$463717e0$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 22:00:42 -0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 --- In ucplist@y..., "Neal Pardoe" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "punkfloyd.rm" > > > This phrase in Judy's post(was it a quote from somewhere?) really > > struck me: > > Sorry! I'll say it quieter next time. ;-) Oh, I didn't realize she was quoting you. I thought it was from some book or something. > > > "I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to > > > but failed." > > > > It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest > > time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to it. "I > > won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) > > Yes. Read the original post from me to you, I was paying you a compliment! I appreciate that! > > > > > Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal > > basis. > > Not exactly what I was describing. I was comparing two experiences and the > statement you quote was as a result of that. Ok. Things look different out of context. > > > Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a > > very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And > > equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? > > No. It's about balance and composure. Remaining undisturbed by an > experience. Letting the ripples pass without doing *something* to them. Yes, my point simply was: If you *still* find yourself doing something to the ripples, don't do something to THAT! :) > > "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, > > and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going higher." > > > > I think the guy speaketh the truth. > > I disagree. > > One can only look calmly at events if one can look calmly at events, which > is dependent upon beingness. Of course. "The thing that used to worry him most was the fact that people always used to ask him what he was looking so worried about." - D.Adams, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. > > That beingness is reflected in the physical universe by what we DO (as who > we are). > > Equanimity and acceptance only come about through a change in beingness, > because by examination and integration of the compulsions and hidden > influences in our lives, one no longer has to compulsively *affect* what is > experienced. i.e. acceptance or allowing to be as it is. And one of the steps in the integration is no longer having to compulsively fight the compulsion. It doesn't mean you have to give in, just not add to the already impressive array of compulsions and inhibitions we all carry. The choice between giving in and compulsively doing something is not a really good choice anyway. > > I am always wary of affirmation as it is an effort to change beingness > through belief, and I'm sure we're all familiar with the effects this has in > the realm of duality. Ok, I understand what you were arguing against. Let me assure you that's not what I meant at all. I was talking about not-doing, affirmation, inhibition, supression, denial and so on are all forms of *doing*. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-821-1021673617-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 22:13:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HMD3B08740 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 22:13:03 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-821-1021673617-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 22:13:37 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 22:13:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 68234 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 22:13:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 22:13:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 22:13:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 22:13:35 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 22:13:35 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] A quote Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 "Part of his brain told him that he knew perfectly well what he was looking at and what the shapes represented while another quite sensibly refused to countenance the idea and abdicated responsibility for any further thinking in that direction." >From Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. Happens to me every UCP session :) Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-822-1021674584-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 22:29:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.70]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HMTBB21032 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 22:29:11 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-822-1021674584-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 22:29:44 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 22:29:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 5006 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 22:29:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 22:29:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 22:29:42 -0000 Received: from du-035-0139.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.143.139] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178qEG-000KMK-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 17 May 2002 23:29:41 +0100 Message-ID: <01c601c1fdf2$53bb95c0$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 23:29:32 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] A quote Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 ----- Original Message ----- From: "punkfloyd.rm" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: [UCP-List] A quote > "Part of his brain told him that he knew perfectly well what he was > looking at and what the shapes represented while another quite > sensibly refused to countenance the idea and abdicated responsibility > for any further thinking in that direction." > > From Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. > > Happens to me every UCP session :) > > Best, > Oleg > Hey! Glad to see your a Douglas Adams fan. Way Cool dude! Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-823-1021676216-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 22:56:23 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.64]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HMuMB11692 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 22:56:22 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-823-1021676216-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 22:56:56 -0000 X-Sender: maya@directus.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 22:56:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 44522 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 22:56:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 22:56:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO directus.net) (205.245.103.241) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 22:56:53 -0000 Received: from directus.net [12.150.140.177] by directus.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id ACB7FE20148; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:05:27 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE58AB1.DAC45879@directus.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com References: From: judy X-Yahoo-Profile: judithw1941 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 18:56:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Hi Oleg, Those are indeed words of wisdom: You said. "Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal basis. Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it?" Guilty as charged! I was not the one who originally made the statement:"I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to but failed." I did respond to this by saying this was my goal also and that I fail. I have come across the Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment and will go to the site you were nice enough to include and read it again. Judy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-824-1021677144-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 23:11:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.70]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HNBpc26005 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 23:11:51 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-824-1021677144-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 23:12:24 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 23:12:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 71095 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 23:12:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 23:12:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 23:12:22 -0000 Received: from du-031-0143.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.142.143] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178qtY-000La0-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 00:12:21 +0100 Message-ID: <020101c1fdf8$4965a740$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 23:51:11 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 ----- Original Message ----- From: "punkfloyd.rm" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance -----------------big snip----------------- [Oleg] > Loving aka acceptance, IMHO, is not something you actively *do*. It's > just an absence of resistance. Therefore a lover is not needed. Exactly. Love along with Joy, Compassion and Equanimity, the four Wholesome states of Buddhism, are *qualities* of the soul. They are qualities that for me came about as a *natural* phenomena while progressing with UCP. They are not qualities that we can 'work on' so to speak. One has them because one *IS* them, i.e. nature of spirit! Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-825-1021677145-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 23:11:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.103]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HNBpc26009 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 23:11:51 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-825-1021677145-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 23:12:25 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 23:12:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 50802 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 23:12:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 23:12:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 23:12:23 -0000 Received: from du-031-0143.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.142.143] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178qta-000La0-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 00:12:22 +0100 Message-ID: <020201c1fdf8$4a3fdaa0$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 00:10:24 +0100 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 ----- Original Message ----- From: "punkfloyd.rm" To: Sent: Friday, May 17, 2002 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance > --- In ucplist@y..., "Neal Pardoe" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "punkfloyd.rm" > > > > > This phrase in Judy's post(was it a quote from somewhere?) really > > > struck me: > > > > Sorry! I'll say it quieter next time. ;-) > > Oh, I didn't realize she was quoting you. I thought it was from some > book or something. That's OK! > > > > > "I did not have equanimity or acceptance. I tried to > > > > but failed." > > > > > > It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest > > > time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to > it. "I > > > won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) > > > > Yes. Read the original post from me to you, I was paying you a > compliment! > > I appreciate that! Cool! > > > > > > > > > Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal > > > basis. > > > > Not exactly what I was describing. I was comparing two experiences > and the > > statement you quote was as a result of that. > > Ok. Things look different out of context. Yes.Which is why UCPeons look to see all that is possible or relevent. > > > > > > Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets a > > > very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And > > > equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? > > > > No. It's about balance and composure. Remaining undisturbed by an > > experience. Letting the ripples pass without doing *something* to > them. > > Yes, my point simply was: If you *still* find yourself doing > something to the ripples, then there is some hidden influence that requires examination and integration. > don't do something to THAT! :) but look and integrate. :) > > > > > > "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, > > > and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going > higher." > > > > > > I think the guy speaketh the truth. > > > > I disagree. > > > > One can only look calmly at events if one can look calmly at > events, which > > is dependent upon beingness. > > Of course. > > "The thing that used to worry him most was the fact that people > always used to ask him what he was looking so worried about." > - D.Adams, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Love your quotes from D.A! One of my favourite story tellers. ;_( )) I think I only ever quoted him once from Dirk Gently Holistic Detective Agency and the interconnectedness of all things. > > > > > > That beingness is reflected in the physical universe by what we DO > (as who > > we are). > > > > Equanimity and acceptance only come about through a change in > beingness, > > because by examination and integration of the compulsions and hidden > > influences in our lives, one no longer has to compulsively *affect* > what is > > experienced. i.e. acceptance or allowing to be as it is. > > And one of the steps in the integration is no longer having to > compulsively fight the compulsion. It doesn't mean you have to give > in, just not add to the already impressive array of compulsions and > inhibitions we all carry. Yes. > > The choice between giving in and compulsively doing something is not > a really good choice anyway. In fact no choice? > > > > > I am always wary of affirmation as it is an effort to change > beingness > > through belief, and I'm sure we're all familiar with the effects > this has in > > the realm of duality. > > Ok, I understand what you were arguing against. Let me assure you > that's not what I meant at all. Not to worry, I did understand you were making a distinction between equanimity/acceptance and *doing. Just commenting on some aspects of your post. :) > I was talking about not-doing, > affirmation, inhibition, supression, denial and so on are all forms > of *doing*. > > Best, > Oleg > Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-826-1021677460-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 23:17:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HNH7c01844 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 23:17:07 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-826-1021677460-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 23:17:40 -0000 X-Sender: maya@directus.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 23:17:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 69132 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 23:17:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 23:17:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO directus.net) (205.245.103.241) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 23:17:39 -0000 Received: from directus.net [12.150.140.177] by directus.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A195B71A0150; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:26:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE58F8F.72F7AF52@directus.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com References: <006f01c1fc32$15e0c160$d98f7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE3AE2B.C989363C@directus.net> <000b01c1fd94$e2445240$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> <3CE4EE50.CB30FC82@directus.net> <013601c1fdd6$958da040$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> From: judy X-Yahoo-Profile: judithw1941 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:17:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Oleg's Wisdom Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Love your humor, Neal. "Hehe, ve hef many vays of making you talk! ;_( ))" Okay, my first impulse was to pull down a dictionary and get the exact definition, but since you asked me not to do that here are my thoughts and none of these are original. I see the ego as being a part of the personality structure, different from the superego and the id. The ego contains all kinds of defensives to protect one from the full impact of things which one is not ready to take into awareness as it would be too threatening to the ego. It attempts to make one feel better by using defenses. A favorite of mine is overcompensation but I am usually unaware that I am using this maneuver. Many of the defenseses are unconscious but can come into awareness with effort and in the right setting. Sometimes, these come into play in the form of hallucinations or delusions and it is generally thought that psychotics need a fuller range of defenses which would decrease the necessity to utilize just these few. It is also thought that their ego development is faulty. However, more and more there is the opinion that this is a biological condition rather than a psychological one and I am inclined to agree. Some describe the ego as the adult part of a person and it is thought to be a helpful part. I have read that within us is a 'wisdom' that we frequently don't access as we are too busy with distractions. This wisdom is nothing that I have read about in any psy. class or psy. books, but I have come across it in eastern philosophy/spirituality. Judy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-827-1021678109-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri May 17 23:27:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4HNRvc09556 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 23:27:57 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-827-1021678109-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2002 23:28:31 -0000 X-Sender: maya@directus.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 17 May 2002 23:28:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 14291 invoked from network); 17 May 2002 23:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 17 May 2002 23:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO directus.net) (205.245.103.241) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 May 2002 23:28:25 -0000 Received: from directus.net [12.150.140.177] by directus.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A41B4E59010E; Fri, 17 May 2002 19:36:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE59214.D1048C4D@directus.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com References: <016001c1fddd$463717e0$e68e7ed4@oemcomputer> From: judy X-Yahoo-Profile: judithw1941 MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 19:28:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 Hey Neal, You said: I also got to looking at flows, specifically inward flows and how these are >handled differently depending on how much identity/non-identity there is. >That the more identity, personality/attitudes/wonky bits, the more a flow >will be changed, and the less identity, the more a flow will just be >reflected or allowed to pass without change. Like on the Four Conditions >scale of ALTER-ISNESS and ISNESS. Okay, I will be like the woman in the shampoo commercials. "Yes, Yes, Give me More" Judy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-828-1021682071-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 00:33:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.101]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4I0Xvh05747 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 00:33:57 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-828-1021682071-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 00:34:31 -0000 X-Sender: neal.pardoe@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 00:34:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 98707 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 00:34:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 00:34:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 00:34:28 -0000 Received: from du-031-0049.claranet.co.uk ([212.126.142.49] helo=oemcomputer) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 178sAz-000O1P-00 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:34:25 +0100 Message-ID: <002601c1fe03$c11f5e60$318e7ed4@oemcomputer> To: "UCP List" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Neal Pardoe" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:34:17 +0100 Subject: [UCP-List] For Judy (and anyone else) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 Hey Judy, This was the original post. It is one of many... my session write ups to a.c.t and KP's response/comments. It took the place of the after session discussion as I was doing UCP solo. I had a ball! As you will see. :) p.s. I'll respond tomorrow to your other post. Thanks for the response. >>ORIGINAL POST INFO<< DATE: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:25:31 -0000 MESSAGE ID: <1011965186.13149.0@eurus.uk.clara.net> NEWSGROUP: alt.clearing.technology THREAD: UCP SESSION 25/01/02 POSTER: "Neal Pardoe" Session Time: 1h 04m Theme: Assumptions (the spiritual kind) and Identities Awareness Level. ENLIGHTENMENT. Tone: ILLUMINATION Where do I start? It is getting more difficult to put into words what I am experiencing as a result of my sessions now. Mainly because words are not really adequate for the job. A lot of what I am experiencing now relates back to my new found 'inner peace'. That term tho is inadequate. It is more like the difference between ease and dis-ease. By ease I mean less prone to ripples, to be affected by external sources/forces etc. No dampening fields required.:-) Very much what the session theme was all about. The tone/awareness came out at ILLUMINATION/ENLIGHTENMENT, but I also noticed how these seem to be the + harmonics (perhaps almost as opposites) of HIDING/GLEE. Perhaps HIDING/GLEE should be at - 9 on the Chart? The main interest of the session related to IDENTITY, as in the assumption of a body/identity. How this seems to be very much a switch from ease to dis-ease and how unnatural it felt, until I had become accustomed to it. That experiences validate the identity, and eventually the identity feels natural. How misleading and confusing! I also got to looking at flows, specifically inward flows and how these are handled differently depending on how much identity/non-identity there is. That the more identity, personality/attitudes/wonky bits, the more a flow will be changed, and the less identity, the more a flow will just be reflected or allowed to pass without change. Like on the Four Conditions scale of ALTER-ISNESS and ISNESS. I have also noticed more and more recently less and less attention on ME. The identity of ME seems to be slowly dissolving. Sounds a bit funny that. Like I said words are sometimes inadequate, cos this is not a negative at all, quite the opposite! Perhaps I could put it that I am becoming simpler as in less complex. Correspondingly to the above, I have more attention on others, my relationship to them and what I do/can do in relation to them. Maybe that is partly because I have little concern for myself anymore, and also because I am expanding my sphere of influence, it is a definite and quite welcome shift of attention. I looked at my dictionary for definitions of illumination and enlightenment, and disappointingly they are synonyms for each other! The dictionary doesn't take into account the difference between an emotional feeling and an awareness or way of seeing things. To me illumination means revelation. It is closely related to enlightenment, but I don't know how to describe it as an emotional feeling. It is not what I thought it was, the best I can do is to describe it as a calm revelation. That the less personality there is ( attitudes/compulsions...) the less there is to cause ripples (both inward and outward) and the more it is possible to see what is there. Like ripples on a lake make it more difficult to see the reflected image, compared to a calm lake that just reflects what is there. (Homers favourite theetie weetie should like that.) Again this part has really helped me to make sense of all this. Havingness. KP, on looking across the chart, I find that the top plus emotion band for the 5 - 10 emotional tones doesn't fit for me. What do you think about a new entry for that band - Harmony? as a new sub-level of emotion. -- Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- ===================== KONCHOK KOMMENTS ========================== >Session Time: 1h 04m >Theme: Assumptions (the spiritual kind) and Identities >Awareness Level. ENLIGHTENMENT. >Tone: ILLUMINATION > >Where do I start? Where you ARE? >It is getting more difficult to put into words what I am experiencing as a >result of my sessions now. Mainly because words are not really adequate for >the job. Since I hit ORIENTATION, the expectations that I was formerly oriented to have dissolved. >A lot of what I am experiencing now relates back to my new found 'inner peace'. Way Cool! One hopes the walls are built upon the foundation! >That term tho is inadequate. It is more like the difference between >ease and dis-ease. By ease I mean less prone to ripples, to be affected by >external sources/forces etc. No dampening fields required.:-) Yes. The ocean is NOT concerned that waves may damage it! >Very much what the session theme was all about. > >The tone/awareness came out at ILLUMINATION/ENLIGHTENMENT, but I also >noticed how these seem to be the + harmonics (perhaps almost as opposites) >of HIDING/GLEE. Perhaps HIDING/GLEE should be at - 9 on the Chart? Perhaps? I don't know. Perhaps the tone levels of -7, and -9 should be examined more closely? What would the reflections of +7 and +9 be in the cesspool mirror? >The main interest of the session related to IDENTITY, as in the assumption >of a body/identity. Or the ASSOCIATION of the BODY with the SELF? I've been looking at body/self as an area of shifting attention or focus. I used to shift them from foreground to background. Now I'm trying to broaden my attention so I am NOT FOCUSED on one or the other. Perhaps if you have no focus you have no orientation? Is focus itself an aberration created as the solution to a problem? >How this seems to be very much a switch from ease to dis-ease >and how unnatural it felt, until I had become accustomed to it. Every change has an awkward phase? >That experiences validate the identity, and eventually the >identity feels natural. How misleading and confusing! Unexpected perception changes! >I also got to looking at flows, specifically inward flows and how these are >handled differently depending on how much identity/non-identity there is. >That the more identity, personality/attitudes/wonky bits, the more a flow >will be changed, and the less identity, the more a flow will just be >reflected or allowed to pass without change. Like on the Four Conditions >scale of ALTER-ISNESS and ISNESS. Way Cool! >I have also noticed more and more recently less and less attention on ME. Once ME is KNOWN, the attention moves on to . . . US! >The identity of ME seems to be slowly dissolving. Sounds a bit funny that. The iceberg discovers the . . . OCEAN! And starts to explore his relationship to it! >Like I said words are sometimes inadequate, cos this is not a negative at >all, quite the opposite! Perhaps I could put it that I am becoming simpler >as in less complex. I understand what you are talking about. Your sense of SELF WITHIN is pretty solid by +5. Then you discover your sense of self in US by your ASSOCIATIONS with other parts of the universe. That includes your body, your activities, . . . and others' bodies and activities. >Correspondingly to the above, I have more attention on others, my >relationship to them and what I do/can do in relation to them. Yes! SELF + ELSE = ALL >Maybe that is partly because I have little concern for myself anymore, Yes. Below death, your attention is mostly directed INWARD to the weird stuff you are doing IN your own universe. Above 5 your attention is not INTROVERTED, but EXTROVERTED. >and also because I am expanding my sphere of influence, >it is a definite and quite welcome shift of attention. Yes. The pattern of relationships between actual viewpoints is the upper harmonic of the pattern of relationships between SUPPOSITORY IFS down in below death THINK and DUB-IN. >I looked at my dictionary for definitions of illumination and enlightenment, >and disappointingly they are synonyms for each other! The dictionary doesn't >take into account the difference between an emotional feeling and an >awareness or way of seeing things. Sometimes I can't separate them either. >To me illumination means revelation. It is closely related to enlightenment, >but I don't know how to describe it as an emotional feeling. Because it's a DIFFERENT kind of emotion than you have experienced. It's an emotion in the grand sense of "Emotional Tone Scale", but not in the sense of plus-emotion vs. minus-emotion. The emotions OF YOUR SELF are in the 0 to 5 band. Above that you are looking at the interractions of yourself with others. Looking at the reflections in the 0 to -5 and -5 to -10 bands might clarify the areas. >It is not what >I thought it was, the best I can do is to describe it as a calm revelation. Way Cool! >That the less personality there is ( attitudes/compulsions...) the less >there is to cause ripples (both inward and outward) and the more it is >possible to see what is there. Like ripples on a lake make it more difficult >to see the reflected image, compared to a calm lake that just reflects what >is there. (Homers favourite theetie weetie should like that.) Yes. >Again this part has really helped me to make sense of all this. Havingness. YES. Directly HAVING something rather than FEELING *ABOUT* IT. That directly relates to the HAVE vs HAD reflection below zero. >KP, on looking across the chart, I find that the top plus emotion >band for the 5 - 10 emotional tones doesn't fit for me. I agree. It seemed awkward, but I had not seen what was better yet. >What do you think about a new >entry for that band - Harmony? >as a new sub-level of emotion. *I LIKE IT!* It's an excellent contrast to the lower harmonic of ENEMY between -5 and -10. Thanks for writing. Best Wishes, WE'LCOME TO *ACTUALLITY!* THANK YOU FORECHOOSING YOUR ROLE IN THE COSMIC DRAMA NOW! RESET YOUR SELF! REBOOT YOUR MIND! DEBUG AND UPGRADE YOUR OWN OPE'RA'TING SYSTEM RIGHT, NOW! DO UCP AND SEE! O --- ) \ Konchok Penday Research & Technical Writer Recipient of the Alex Yakovlev Technical hExcellence Award :-) Integrator: Universal Consciousness Plot http://net-prophet.net/ucp/chart.htm Formulator and Disseminator of the Universal Clearing Process: http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ Flounder & Prophet Gods Church: http://net-prophet.net/gc/ Philosophy & Holistic Health eBook: http://net-prophet.net/tddup/ Innovative Architectural System: http://net-prophet.net/subs/ Better Banjo Bureau http://net-prophet.net/bbb/ #################################################### N-LIGHTENMENT! . . . RIGHT! . . . NOW! WHAT THE BUDDHA SOUGHT IS FOUND! YOU CAN LEARN IT FREE TODAY! http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ TEST THE UNIVERSAL CLEARING PROCESS: COMPARE PAST AND FUTURE TO PRESENT! DOWNLOAD THE FREE UCP VIRTUAL WITNESS: YOU CAN RAISE YOUR OWN AWARENESS NOW! UCP: TRANSFORMING AWARENESS SINCE THE SECOND MILLENNIUM, ONE BODHISATTVA AT A TIME! #################################################### Your fine contribution to UCP@net-prophet.net via paypal.com helps others Find, Learn and DO UCP! GET YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW! @ net-prophet.net RE-EVALUATION COUNSELORS: RE-EVALUATE! EXIT COUNSELORS: UCP CURES $CIENTOLOGY! UCP *USENET* POSTS @ alt.clearing.technology Thanks to homer@lightlink.com for ISP support plus ACT + ARS Free News: Server = news2.lightlink.com Newsreader = http://forteinc.com/agent/freagent.htm Neal. ------------------------------------------- A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking deep largely sobers us again. Alexander Pope - Essay on Criticism. :o ------------------------------------------- UCP Posts on *USENET* @ alt.ucp UCP on the net for FREE. http://net-prophet.net/ucp/index.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-829-1021686418-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 01:46:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4I1kOk24246 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:46:24 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-829-1021686418-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 01:46:58 -0000 X-Sender: ondinegreen@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 01:46:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 97785 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 01:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 01:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (207.68.163.213) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 01:46:57 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 May 2002 18:46:57 -0700 Received: from 203.79.70.128 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 May 2002 01:46:56 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 May 2002 01:46:57.0010 (UTC) FILETIME=[E4D24520:01C1FE0D] From: "Ondine Green" X-Originating-IP: [203.79.70.128] MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 01:46:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: TechTalk 43 Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 >From: "Neal Pardoe" > > This inevitably leads, I think, to the belief that the highest level of > > enlightenment is to be able to live completely in your own >hallucinations > > and to make them impervious to anything happening outside your own head. > >Yes, and imagine the horror of living like that, in a void, forever out of >time. > >Aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh! ;( ) Heh. Has anyone else here seen the Japanese animated film, _End of Evangelion_? Neal's comment above reminded me of how that movie ended. *shudder* But I can heartily recommend that film, and the TV series which produced it, _Neon Genesis Evangelion_ - wonderful philosophical speculation combined with big-ass robots smashing things. ;-) >Yes, after reading TT 43, I recommend you also read the discussion KP and I >had regarding the tones above 10, discussed on this list as "[UCP-List] New >Tone Level?". It's kinda like the next installment. Thanks for the reference. It's good to see that tones 10-15 aren't just theoretical; can't wait until we have first-hand knowledge of up to 20 and beyond. ;-) I do have personal knowledge of how tones 6-8 work, mainly because I'm in a *very* good relationship... Couple more points: - Yes, Justin, feel free to edit my hastily scrambled submission. ;-) - UCP In Daily Life, instalment #94: I flaked out at my aikido training this morning and had to leave because someone turned up to train whom I really can't stand. My partner was with me, and I flaked out even more when I tried to explain how upset I was and she told me to save it until we got home. Thinking about it, I remembered *when I'd felt like that before*. In the first instance, this guy in particular had made some harrassing comments to me, which reminded me of being 14 and being on the constant receiving end of sexual harrassment from several of the older boys. (I was a very closeted baby-dyke at that stage, of course, and it petrified me that maybe they *knew* and thus thought I was Fair Game...) In the second instant, being told to be quiet about being upset reminded me of the secrecy imposed on me by a rather abusive childhood - the idea that if people knew that nasty things were happening to you, they'd realise that you were a bad horrible evil person and consequently abuse you some more. So, I was able to see how I was dealing with emotions from at least thirteen years ago which were superimposing themselves on the Now, but really had nothing to do with it. The next step is of course to look to the future... well, I'll tell you how that worked out once I see whether I've managed to properly integrate it in real-world behaviour. ;-) ondine _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-830-1021694563-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 04:02:11 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4I42AT15152 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 04:02:10 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-830-1021694563-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 04:02:43 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 04:02:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 51766 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 04:02:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 04:02:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 04:02:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 04:02:42 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 65.94.193.245 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 04:02:42 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: TechTalk 43 Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 --- In ucplist@y..., "Ondine Green" wrote: > > - UCP In Daily Life, instalment #94: I flaked out at my aikido training this > morning and had to leave because someone turned up to train whom I really > can't stand. My partner was with me, and I flaked out even more when I tried > to explain how upset I was and she told me to save it until we got home. > Hi! I am sorry to hear about your upset but it's very cool to see a fellow Aikidoka on the list. I must say exposure to this art was a big boost for my processing. The idea of "going with the flow" yet fully contrlling the situation is very powerful even outside the martial arts realm. This is, IMHO, is what we are shooting for in UCP, but we try to apply it to entire life :) Best, Oleg "The best aikido fight is when you and your opponent meet, shake hands and go have a beer together - katatetori beernage" My friend ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-831-1021697363-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 04:48:50 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.76]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4I4mnP11084 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 04:48:49 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-831-1021697363-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 04:49:23 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 04:49:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 87029 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 04:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 04:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 04:49:21 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4I4mf211073; Sat, 18 May 2002 04:48:41 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 04:48:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 On Fri, 17 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > > > It was really true, for sure I have done that for the longest > > > time...and yet this pharse almost has a ring of an oxymoron to > > > it. "I won't touch metric system with a 304cm pole" kind of a deal :) > > > > Good one, Oleg! Whether intentional or dyslexic, I'll add that one > > to my vocabulary. ;) > > It's the dyslexic one :) > > > > > > So what's up with this little snippet? Is there indeed an internal > > > contradiction? IMHO, there is. If one is trying and failing there > > > must be some resistance. One is fighting with something. And that > > > is a direct opposite of acceptance. > > > > > > Here one is trying to accept everything and everybody on an equal > > > basis. Everybody, that is, except him/herself! *This* person gets > > > a very special and a very harsh treatment. That's just unfair! And > > > equanimity is all about being fair, isn't it? > > > > Yes, yes -- all this turmoil is going on. All this rationalization, > > negotiation, idealism, failure in manifesting ideals, etc. But who > > is witnessing all this? > > Obvious answer: Me. > > But that's too boring. So, lately I have been thinking the situation > is even more straightforward than that: Witnessing simply happens. > Asking "who is witnessing what?" is like asking "Where a worm's head > ends and the tail begins?" I see your point. However if one is tempted, from time-to-time, to put some legs on that worm. . . Language ultimately fails; not only because words are ambiguous, but because identity is ambiguous. Life is always and forever and at the same time always dying and always borning. It matters -- and at the same time does not matter which side you express. As Lao Tse puts it: Oftentimes one strips oneself of passion in order to see the Secret of Life Oftentimes one regards life with passion in order to see its manifest forms. These two (the Secret and its manifestations) Are (in their nature) the same. They are given different names when they become manifest. They may both be called the Cosmic Mystery: Reaching from the Mystery into the Deeper Mystery is the Gate to the Secret of All Life. > (yeah, I know worms are not very appetizing analogy, but it's hard to > find an appealing and clear metaphor. Substitute Humpty-Dumpty if you > like) > > And another litarary quote: > "Everything is in the hands of Allah" > "But don't forget, the entire world, including Allah, is in the mind > of Buddha!" > "Yes, but the mind of Buddha is in the hands of Allah." > V.Pelevin (quoting by memory) If you can hold this intently enough it might just shoot you through the roof! > > By comparing this (present) with what used to be or > > what might be, one detatches, gets unstuck from this junk. > > Or, to go with the worm analogy, compare the head of a worm to its > tail long enough, and you'll find the worm :) Don't forget the wormhole ;) > > The fundamental "contradiction" is really a duality: the being > > experiencing the objects of his creation. > > > > Or duality between cause and effect. Or between worm's head and > worm's tail =) In Newton's world, cause and effect are arbitrarily named. One effect is cause for the next effect and so on, forward or backward in time. But perpendicular to this linear stream of events, which I am pleased to call Creation, or Total Effect, is the world of Creator, or Total Cause, which in reality is the world we inhabit. Cause and effect in the sense it is usually used is just tags on a process of manifest effect. Science is arrogant because it somehow can't grok that. > > (Many of his thought-objects are in conflict). > > Yes and no. Conflicts are also a consideration. If a tree falls in a > forest and noone sees it, is there a conflict? :) The key word here is "many" ;) > > > Here's a quote from a interesting little book called "Lazy Man's > > > Guide to Enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas (read it at > > > http://www.lcars.eu.org/sarah.peter.nelson/lazyman) > > > > > > "But if you look calmly at undesired events, absorb them mentally, > > > and **love yourself for disliking them**, you will keep going > higher." > > > > Yes, that's lovely. But there's a further point. Who's doing the > > loving is who you really are. > > Loving aka acceptance, IMHO, is not something you actively *do*. It's > just an absence of resistance. Therefore a lover is not needed. All are melted into love alone. . . > Like Aikido - you don't throw the attacker, you just cease to resist > his natural tendency to fall. If you are not there at all, even > better! > > > That's the witness, peeping into this world of time and turmoil. > > All while enthusiastically creating it. A lovely situation indeed :) > > > > > > I think the guy speaketh the truth. > > > > Probably too lazy to lie. . . > > LSD does that to you =) To whom? I have told some excellent lies on LSD. But that is another story for another time. ;) A most enjoyable conversation! Thanks- abner > Best, > Oleg abner@sdf.lonestar.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-832-1021697957-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 04:58:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4I4whP16207 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 04:58:43 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-832-1021697957-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 04:59:17 -0000 X-Sender: ondinegreen@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 04:59:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 37514 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 04:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 04:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.19.93) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 04:59:16 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 May 2002 21:59:16 -0700 Received: from 203.79.109.242 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 May 2002 04:59:15 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 May 2002 04:59:16.0235 (UTC) FILETIME=[C2BC45B0:01C1FE28] From: "Ondine Green" X-Originating-IP: [203.79.109.242] MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 04:59:15 +0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] aikido Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 >it's very cool to see a >fellow Aikidoka on the list. Definitely. I've been training for just over two years now and I think I'm beginning to get the "feel" to some extent. >I must say exposure to this art was a >big boost for my processing. The idea of "going with the flow" yet >fully contrlling the situation is very powerful even outside the >martial arts realm. Hmmm. Well, I don't know that the defending partner in an aikido throw is *controlling* the situation... it seems to me that my best aikido is when I just get out of the way. ;-) >This is, IMHO, is what we are shooting for in >UCP, but we try to apply it to entire life :) Oh, yes. Definitely - there are great overlaps between the arts. Interestingly enough, my sensei describe aikido as a Taoist art, so maybe that's a nice counterbalance to all the Buddhism we seem to bew getting around here. >"The best aikido fight is when you and your opponent meet, shake >hands and go have a beer together - katatetori beernage" >My friend "Aikido makes the beer taste better" - some wiseasses in San Francisco ;-) But that was the main reason I blew training today, of course - I was worried that I might actually *hurt* this guy who just happened to be in the way of some of my own nasty energy from 15 years ago. ondine _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-833-1021708508-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 07:54:34 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4I7sYk12511 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 07:54:34 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-833-1021708508-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 07:55:08 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 07:55:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 40173 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 07:55:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 07:55:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 07:55:06 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.192]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA17473 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 02:55:00 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020518005118.00b12040@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 00:51:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by otaku.freeshell.org id g4I7sYk12511 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 At 09:34 AM 5/15/2002 -0000, you wrote: >Hi > >Help me test this... > >Add the news host ucp.ath.cx to your news reader and see if alt.ucp >is there. > >If it works... hurray! If not then 80( I'll try again. > >Note: this server, if it works, will not be online always so my >advice is... if it doesn't work try later; perhaps next day. > >Best Wishes, > >Alexander Køpke I've tried this several times now, but can't get it. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-834-1021720870-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 11:20:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IBKZ514402 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 11:20:36 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-834-1021720870-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 11:21:10 -0000 X-Sender: luccerveau@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 11:21:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 93826 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 11:21:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 11:21:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 11:21:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 11:21:08 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020518005118.00b12040@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "LucCerveau" X-Originating-IP: 80.62.165.176 X-Yahoo-Profile: LucCerveau MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:21:06 -0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by otaku.freeshell.org id g4IBKZ514402 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > At 09:34 AM 5/15/2002 -0000, you wrote: > >Hi > > > >Help me test this... > > > >Add the news host ucp.ath.cx to your news reader and see if alt.ucp > >is there. > > > >If it works... hurray! If not then 80( I'll try again. > > > >Note: this server, if it works, will not be online always so my > >advice is... if it doesn't work try later; perhaps next day. > > > >Best Wishes, > > > >Alexander Køpke > > > I've tried this several times now, but can't get it. > > > KP Please state the time i.e. was it today? I'm sorry today I forgot to start it up... there you go! I'll have it open the next 9 hours or so... Please try again! Thank you!! Anyway... you are the first who responded but if it works for you it will w= ork for others as well... It works on my own computer but maybe it's different... BW, AK PS. in central europe the time is now 13.19 or 1.19 pm. What are the time differences?? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-835-1021729194-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 13:39:21 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.90]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IDdKb28736 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 13:39:20 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-835-1021729194-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 13:39:54 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 13:39:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 68293 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 13:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 13:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 13:39:53 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.192]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA03711 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 08:39:51 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020518063533.00c92ff8@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020518005118.00b12040@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 06:35:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by otaku.freeshell.org id g4IDdKb28736 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Alexander Kopke wrote: >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: >> At 09:34 AM 5/15/2002 -0000, you wrote: >> >Hi >> > >> >Help me test this... >> > >> >Add the news host ucp.ath.cx to your news reader and see if alt.ucp >> >is there. >> > >> >If it works... hurray! If not then 80( I'll try again. >> > >> >Note: this server, if it works, will not be online always so my >> >advice is... if it doesn't work try later; perhaps next day. >> > >> >Best Wishes, >> > >> >Alexander Køpke >> >> >> I've tried this several times now, but can't get it. >> >> >> KP > >Please state the time i.e. was it today? > >I'm sorry today I forgot to start it up... there you go! > >I'll have it open the next 9 hours or so... Please try again! > >Thank you!! > >Anyway... you are the first who responded but if it works for you it will w= >ork for others as well... > >It works on my own computer but maybe it's different... > >BW, > >AK > >PS. in central europe the time is now 13.19 or 1.19 pm. > >What are the time differences?? I just tried now and it's not working for me. It's 6:30 am which is zulu time minus 8 hours on the west coast of the US. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-836-1021729801-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 13:49:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.106]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IDnRb05381 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 13:49:27 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-836-1021729801-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 13:50:01 -0000 X-Sender: luccerveau@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 13:50:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 39232 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 13:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 13:50:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 13:50:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 13:49:58 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020518063533.00c92ff8@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "LucCerveau" X-Originating-IP: 80.62.165.176 X-Yahoo-Profile: LucCerveau MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 13:49:57 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by otaku.freeshell.org id g4IDnRb05381 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > > > Alexander Kopke wrote: > >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > >> At 09:34 AM 5/15/2002 -0000, you wrote: > >> >Hi > >> > > >> >Help me test this... > >> > > >> >Add the news host ucp.ath.cx to your news reader and see if alt.ucp > >> >is there. > >> > > >> >If it works... hurray! If not then 80( I'll try again. > >> > > >> >Note: this server, if it works, will not be online always so my > >> >advice is... if it doesn't work try later; perhaps next day. > >> > > >> >Best Wishes, > >> > > >> >Alexander Køpke > >> > >> > >> I've tried this several times now, but can't get it. > >> > >> > >> KP > > > >Please state the time i.e. was it today? > > > >I'm sorry today I forgot to start it up... there you go! > > > >I'll have it open the next 9 hours or so... Please try again! > > > >Thank you!! > > > >Anyway... you are the first who responded but if it works for you it wil= l w= > >ork for others as well... > > > >It works on my own computer but maybe it's different... > > > >BW, > > > >AK > > > >PS. in central europe the time is now 13.19 or 1.19 pm. > > > >What are the time differences?? > > I just tried now and it's not working for me. > > It's 6:30 am which is zulu time minus > 8 hours on the west coast of the US. > > > KP Ok.. Hmmm... perhaps my isp has block the port 119(default) I have now changed it to 120.... please change the port to 120 and try again. Thanks for your help. 80) BW, AK ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-837-1021732034-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 14:26:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IEQew29908 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 14:26:40 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-837-1021732034-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 14:27:14 -0000 X-Sender: hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 14:27:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 7971 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 14:27:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 14:27:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 14:27:13 -0000 Received: (from hydragon@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4IEQXA08274 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 14:26:33 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20020518142633.A22631@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> References: <3.0.6.32.20020518063533.00c92ff8@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from luccerveau@yahoo.com on Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:49:57PM -0000 From: "A. Hydragon" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 14:26:33 +0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:49:57PM -0000, LucCerveau wrote: > > >PS. in central europe the time is now 13.19 or 1.19 pm. > > > > > >What are the time differences?? > > > > I just tried now and it's not working for me. > > > > It's 6:30 am which is zulu time minus > > 8 hours on the west coast of the US. > > > > > > KP > > Ok.. > > Hmmm... perhaps my isp has block the port 119(default) > > I have now changed it to 120.... > > please change the port to 120 and try again. > > Thanks for your help. 80) I just tried several times for both ports on different ISPs. Nothing works for either. I think time stamp on this mail is UCT. *-hydragon-* ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-838-1021739082-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 16:26:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IGPxL15176 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:26:00 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-838-1021739082-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 16:24:42 -0000 X-Sender: hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 16:24:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 17968 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 16:24:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 16:24:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 16:24:41 -0000 Received: (from hydragon@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4IGO1v05338 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:24:01 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20020518162401.A929@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> References: <3.0.6.32.20020518063533.00c92ff8@net-prophet.net> <20020518142633.A22631@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020518142633.A22631@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG>; from hydragon@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG on Sat, May 18, 2002 at 02:26:33PM +0000 From: "A. Hydragon" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:24:01 +0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: just a test Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 why are you reading this? -- hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org test ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-839-1021740525-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 16:48:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.78]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IGmBL28223 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 16:48:11 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-839-1021740525-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 16:48:45 -0000 X-Sender: luccerveau@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 16:48:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 24543 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 16:48:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 16:48:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 16:48:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 16:48:44 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020518142633.A22631@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "LucCerveau" X-Originating-IP: 80.62.165.176 X-Yahoo-Profile: LucCerveau MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:48:43 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 --- In ucplist@y..., "A. Hydragon" wrote: > On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 01:49:57PM -0000, LucCerveau wrote: > > > >PS. in central europe the time is now 13.19 or 1.19 pm. > > > > > > > >What are the time differences?? > > > > > > I just tried now and it's not working for me. > > > > > > It's 6:30 am which is zulu time minus > > > 8 hours on the west coast of the US. > > > > > > > > > KP > > > > Ok.. > > > > Hmmm... perhaps my isp has block the port 119(default) > > > > I have now changed it to 120.... > > > > please change the port to 120 and try again. > > > > Thanks for your help. 80) > > I just tried several times for both ports on different ISPs. > Nothing works for either. I've put it back to port 119 because with 120 it doesn't even work for me 80( I've tested it with free agent, doesn't seem to work, Xnews, which works, and outlook which also works. There aren't any messages of why it isn't connecting? Or aren't there any? > I think time stamp on this mail is UCT. Oki > > *-hydragon-* Thanks for your time 80) BW, AK ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-840-1021741383-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 17:02:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.89]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IH2TL07585 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:02:29 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-840-1021741383-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.198] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 17:03:03 -0000 X-Sender: hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 17:03:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 5359 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 17:03:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 17:03:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 17:03:02 -0000 Received: (from hydragon@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4IH2MY02589 for ucplist@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:02:22 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20020518170222.A5901@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> References: <20020518142633.A22631@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from luccerveau@yahoo.com on Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:48:43PM -0000 From: "A. Hydragon" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:02:22 +0000 Subject: RE::2:Re: [UCP-List] Re: ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:48:43PM -0000, LucCerveau wrote: > I've put it back to port 119 because with 120 it doesn't even work for me 80( > I've tested it with free agent, doesn't seem to work, Xnews, which works, and outlook which also works. > > There aren't any messages of why it isn't connecting? Or aren't there any? Can't connect to server Can't access startfile Nothing helpful. lynx just hangs. I have to Control-C it -- hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org ;) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-841-1021743964-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 17:45:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IHjUS04525 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:45:30 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-841-1021743964-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 17:46:04 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 17:46:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 59015 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 17:46:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 17:46:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 17:46:03 -0000 Received: by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4IHjNF04480; Sat, 18 May 2002 17:45:23 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 17:45:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Re: just a test Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 On Sat, 18 May 2002, A. Hydragon wrote: > Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 16:24:01 +0000 > From: A. Hydragon > Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com > To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [UCP-List] Re: just a test > > why are you reading this? > > -- > hydragon@sdf.lonestar.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org Oh, I dunno. Just insatiable curiosity I guess. But I see what you did, you crazy MF! The yahoo gods will wreak vengeance! ;) abner@sdf.lonestar.org ;) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-842-1021748698-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sat May 18 19:04:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.89]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4IJ4Ob27308 for ; Sat, 18 May 2002 19:04:24 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-842-1021748698-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.98] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 19:04:58 -0000 X-Sender: luccerveau@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 18 May 2002 19:04:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 13841 invoked from network); 18 May 2002 19:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 18 May 2002 19:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2002 19:04:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2002 19:04:48 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020518170222.A5901@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "LucCerveau" X-Originating-IP: 80.62.165.176 X-Yahoo-Profile: LucCerveau MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 19:04:47 -0000 Subject: RE::2:Re: [UCP-List] Re: ucp.ath.cx Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 --- In ucplist@y..., "A. Hydragon" wrote: > On Sat, May 18, 2002 at 04:48:43PM -0000, LucCerveau wrote: > > > I've put it back to port 119 because with 120 it doesn't even work for > me 80( > > > I've tested it with free agent, doesn't seem to work, Xnews, which > works, and outlook which also works. > > > > > There aren't any messages of why it isn't connecting? Or aren't there any? > > Can't connect to server > Can't access startfile > > Nothing helpful. lynx just hangs. I have to Control-C it Thanx for trying 80) Best Wishes, AK > -- > hydragon@s... > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ;) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-843-1021769881-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 00:57:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4J0vRM04624 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 00:57:27 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-843-1021769881-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 00:58:01 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 00:57:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 62619 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 00:57:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 00:57:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 00:57:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 00:57:59 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 65.94.193.245 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 00:57:57 -0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] aikido Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 --- In ucplist@y..., "Ondine Green" wrote: > >it's very cool to see a > >fellow Aikidoka on the list. > > Definitely. I've been training for just over two years now and I think I'm > beginning to get the "feel" to some extent. > > >I must say exposure to this art was a > >big boost for my processing. The idea of "going with the flow" yet > >fully contrlling the situation is very powerful even outside the > >martial arts realm. > > Hmmm. Well, I don't know that the defending partner in an aikido throw is > *controlling* the situation... it seems to me that my best aikido is when I > just get out of the way. ;-) You can say that too. Eventually attacker will get tired and you then can sort outthe situation in a harmonious manner. That's supposedly how Aikido got invented. > > >This is, IMHO, is what we are shooting for in > >UCP, but we try to apply it to entire life :) > > Oh, yes. Definitely - there are great overlaps between the arts. > Interestingly enough, my sensei describe aikido as a Taoist art, so maybe > that's a nice counterbalance to all the Buddhism we seem to bew getting > around here. Hmm. It might be similar to Taoism in certain respects, but the religion behind Aikido is well known: It's Omotokyo, which is a kind of New-Age shintoism. O-Sensei was a devout member of that sect. http://www.oomoto.or.jp/index.html > > >"The best aikido fight is when you and your opponent meet, shake > >hands and go have a beer together - katatetori beernage" > >My friend > > "Aikido makes the beer taste better" - some wiseasses in San Francisco ;-) I 100% concur. And, interestingly, since I have started I have noticed my hangovers became extremely mild. > But that was the main reason I blew training today, of course - I was > worried that I might actually *hurt* this guy who just happened to be in the > way of some of my own nasty energy from 15 years ago. It's really cool when you recognize why you do stuff. Here's where UCP comes handy! best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-844-1021770884-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 01:14:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4J1E9p14937 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 01:14:09 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-844-1021770884-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 01:14:44 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 01:14:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 49783 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 01:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 01:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 01:14:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 01:14:42 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 65.94.193.245 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 01:14:41 -0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > As Lao Tse puts it: > Oftentimes one strips oneself of passion > in order to see the Secret of Life > Oftentimes one regards life with passion > in order to see its manifest forms. > > These two (the Secret and its manifestations) > Are (in their nature) the same. > They are given different names > when they become manifest. > > They may both be called the Cosmic Mystery: > Reaching from the Mystery into the Deeper Mystery > is the Gate to the Secret of All Life. Very good quote indeed. Lao Tse knew where it is at :) > > > (yeah, I know worms are not very appetizing analogy, but it's hard to > > find an appealing and clear metaphor. Substitute Humpty-Dumpty if you > > like) > > > > And another litarary quote: > > "Everything is in the hands of Allah" > > "But don't forget, the entire world, including Allah, is in the mind > > of Buddha!" > > "Yes, but the mind of Buddha is in the hands of Allah." > > V.Pelevin (quoting by memory) > > If you can hold this intently enough it might just shoot you through > the roof! That's pretty much what happens in the novel (I think it is "Prince of Gosplan"). Check out this writer, he really has an interesting take on things. Most of his works has been translated into English. > > > By comparing this (present) with what used to be or > > > what might be, one detatches, gets unstuck from this junk. > > > > Or, to go with the worm analogy, compare the head of a worm to its > > tail long enough, and you'll find the worm :) > > Don't forget the wormhole ;) You are absolutely right. > > > > The fundamental "contradiction" is really a duality: the being > > > experiencing the objects of his creation. > > > > > > > Or duality between cause and effect. Or between worm's head and > > worm's tail =) > > In Newton's world, cause and effect are arbitrarily named. One effect is > cause for the next effect and so on, forward or backward in time. But > perpendicular to this linear stream of events, which I am pleased to > call Creation, or Total Effect, is the world of Creator, or Total Cause, > which in reality is the world we inhabit. Cause and effect in the sense > it is usually used is just tags on a process of manifest effect. Science > is arrogant because it somehow can't grok that. It actually does, but not in the usual Newtonian model. Quantum mechanics has a rather more enlightened approach. The existence of lasers and computers testifies that it is also a very workable approach. > > > > (Many of his thought-objects are in conflict). > > > > Yes and no. Conflicts are also a consideration. If a tree falls in a > > forest and noone sees it, is there a conflict? :) > > The key word here is "many" ;) My point was that nothing is in conflict until someone considers it to be in conflict. Someone should come along and say "You cannothave it both ways" > > > > LSD does that to you =) > > To whom? I have told some excellent lies on LSD. But that is another > story for another time. ;) I guess that's individual. But, anyway, I was referring to the author of "Lazy Man's Guide", Mr. Golas, a big connoiseur of lysergic acid diethylamide. > A most enjoyable conversation! Ditto! best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-845-1021785164-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 05:12:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.82]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4J5C9s01093 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:12:09 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-845-1021785164-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 05:12:44 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 05:12:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 11367 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 05:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 05:12:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 05:12:43 -0000 Received: by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4J5C2000773; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:12:02 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 05:12:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 On Sun, 19 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > > And another litarary quote: > > > "Everything is in the hands of Allah" > > > "But don't forget, the entire world, including Allah, is in the > > > mind of Buddha!" > > > "Yes, but the mind of Buddha is in the hands of Allah." > > > V.Pelevin (quoting by memory) > > > > If you can hold this intently enough it might just shoot you through > > the roof! > > That's pretty much what happens in the novel (I think it is "Prince > of Gosplan"). Check out this writer, he really has an interesting > take on things. Most of his works has been translated into English. Hope to do that. So many books so little time. (How's that for a persuasive lie?) > > In Newton's world, cause and effect are arbitrarily named. One > > effect is cause for the next effect and so on, forward or backward > > in time. But perpendicular to this linear stream of events, which I > > am pleased to call Creation, or Total Effect, is the world of > > Creator, or Total Cause, which in reality is the world we inhabit. > > Cause and effect in the sense it is usually used is just tags on a > > process of manifest effect. Science is arrogant because it somehow > > can't grok that. > > It actually does, but not in the usual Newtonian model. Quantum > mechanics has a rather more enlightened approach. The existence of > lasers and computers testifies that it is also a very workable > approach. Some *scientists* speak of what is beyond the reach of science, but my impression is that they are in the minority -- although a very creative minority. But QM seems on the verge of obsolescence, in favor of super-strings -- if only the mathematics were more tractable. Quantum computers might help here. As it is, because the equations are so highly recursive, all the computing power on Earth now, if harnessed to the task, would take over a hundred years to solve the first hard equation. The approximations do not suffice for bringing the theory to maturity. I do not understand the details. What I do understand is elegant and beautiful, in contrast to QM, which although useful is ugly. Is there such a thing as an ugly truth? > > > > > > (Many of his thought-objects are in conflict). > > > > > > Yes and no. Conflicts are also a consideration. If a tree falls > in a > > > forest and noone sees it, is there a conflict? :) > > > > The key word here is "many" ;) > > My point was that nothing is in conflict until someone considers it > to be in conflict. Someone should come along and say "You cannothave > it both ways" Some one pointed out that the Darwinian struggle for survival, wherein all creatures are in competition, can also be seen as a vast system of cooperation, wherein all creatures collaborate for mutual benefit. Sometimes it's like those little grids of boxes where you see all the boxes as concavities; then if you blink your eyes they all turn into convexities. Maybe you CAN have it both ways; just not both ways at once. I have never been able to see some of the boxes as empty and some as closed and opaque. > > > > > > LSD does that to you =) > > > > To whom? I have told some excellent lies on LSD. But that is another > > story for another time. ;) > > I guess that's individual. But, anyway, I was referring to the author > of "Lazy Man's Guide", Mr. Golas, a big connoiseur of lysergic acid > diethylamide. Oh. I read that book a long time ago. I think in the mid 70s. I don't remember that part. Thanks for your thoughts. abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-846-1021799636-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 09:13:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.107]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4J9Dew00331 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 09:13:41 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-846-1021799636-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 09:13:59 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 09:13:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 7628 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 09:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 09:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 09:13:53 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.177]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA04470 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 04:13:45 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020519021007.00b39a68@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:10:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] UCP Archive 2001-2002 uploaded to UCP-List Files section Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 [second reply by KP] At 04:50 PM 5/14/2002 -0000, Alex Buksdorf wrote: >Hello All, > >I finally uploaded long promised UCP Archive to >the UCP-List File section, so far only for >2001 & 2002 (Jan-Apr). > >I'm still working on 1999 & 2000. > >I'm gonna update it every month. > >I also uploaded the complete TechTalks Series >(some are missing on the UCP websight). > >UCP Archive is compressed into a number of zip-files. > >Here is the Readme file included in each zip-file: > >===================================================================== > > READ THIS FIRST: > >UCP Archive includes many posts on >the subject of UCP from the Usenet newsgroup >alt.clearing.technology (ACT) from 1999 to >present (and now also from UCP-List and alt.ucp). > >It contains a wealth of UCP discussions which >clarify many UCP points, success stories, >session reports, UCP news, etc. > >You can find UCP Archive at the UCP-List >Files Section: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ > >It consists of a number of zipped files, which >you can download to your hard drive, unzip >to a folder by any of zip-unzip programs like >Winzip and read off-line. > >The posts are arranged in chronological order. > >Names of the files containing posts has the >following structure: > >YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM , > >where >YYYY-MM-DD - date of the post, >HH-MM - time of the post (GMT), > - full or partial post subject. > > >In order to make UCP Archive more compact and to >avoid redandencies I did the following: Dear Alex: I am STILL *THRILLED* that you have archived my posts, but upon reconsideration I have STRONG disagreement with your editing of my posts. I *DO NOT* WRITE TO BE MORE COMPACT. I WRITE TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE TO SAY. IT TAKES EXACTLY AS MANY WORDS AS I USE. I DO NOT WRITE to avoid redundancies. That is YOUR purpose. >1) Since majority of the posts are by Konchok Penday (KP) >and his signature is pretty long, I excluded it from >his posts. You can see KP's current signature at > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/UCP%20Archive/KP%27s% >20Signature THIS IS ALTER-IS/SUBSTITUE/LIABILITY. I *OBJECT* to having my posts edited. MY SIG IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF EVERY POST I WRITE. My continuously changing sig file IS PART OF EVERY POST. It's a SIGnificant part of the history. My old sigs are *NOT* EQUAL to my new sigs. DELETING MY SIG and then replacing it with a DIFFERENT sig is MISREPRESENTATION. That's like having an abridged version of the constitution, which leaves off the signatures to save space in books. If you are going to archive my posts, archive MY POSTS. Don't archive what you think I ought to have written INSTEAD. If people don't want to read my sig . . . FINE! If people DO want to read my sig . . . NOW THEY CAN'T! If saving bandwidth and hard drive space was my governing purpose, I WOULD NOT SPEAK. I HAVE *NO* SUCH PURPOSE! IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO MY PURPOSES. > or >http://www.net-prophet.net/ucp/main/sigfile.htm > >2) Because KP usually replies to UCP posts by others and >quotes them in full, I didn't include original posts in >this case, only KP's replies. Again, this is a MISREPRESENTATION of both my post and what I was replying to. The original poster has a right to have his words read INTACT AND UNINTERRUPTED. I leave the original post intact when I reply to it when I think it SHOULD be there. You cannot follow the sense of it smoothly when it's all chopped up by my line-by-line or even phrase-by-phrase replies. YOU NEED *BOTH* SECTIONS OF TEXT. I LEAVE IT IN BECAUSE I *WANT* IT LEFT IN! BECAUSE IT'S *NOT THE SAME* WITHOUT IT. >3) I didn't include KP's slicing & dicing posts unless >they explicitly discuss/clarify some UCP points. Leaving out entire posts is FINE with me. EDITING my posts sincerely annoys me. Once you have deleted WHAT I am replying to, PLUS my sig, all we have to do is delete all the insults and run spell check to convert Konchok Penday into KEN DOLL BLATHER. To save 1/10 of a second download time! WHAT'S UP WIT DAT? It looks like a SUBSTITUTE purpose to me! How many tenths of a second does it take to *WONDER* WHAT WAS CENSORED, WHICH NOW CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD. Once you start *ANY EDITING*, you are NO LONGER ARCHIVING, YOU ARE NOW ALTER-ISING and making UNKNOWABLE. I said what I said. *ANYTHING* else is a misrepresentation. I'd MUCH rarther have edited archives than no archives. I'D *MUCH* RATHER HAVE *ACCURATE* ARCHIVES! Which means . . . *ZERO* EDITS! >Alex Buksdorf, >UCP-List owner Again, I am THRILLED you are archiving my posts! However, to be honest and blunt, I must add that I am NOT happy you spent what must be HUGE amounts of your time ALTER-ISING MY POSTS to conform them to how you think they should be. I *DO NOT* think of that as an improvement. I'd *MUCH* rather have them INTACT! If that takes an extra three minutes to download . . . SO WHAT? It's not relevant! Best Wishes, WE'LCOME TO *ACTUALLITY!* THANK YOU FORECHOOSING YOUR ROLE IN THE COSMIC DRAMA NOW! RESET YOUR SELF! REBOOT YOUR MIND! RECOMPILE YOUR BIOS REINSTALL RATIONALITY DEBUG AND UPGRADE YOUR OWN OPE'RA'TING SYSTEM . . . RIGHT! NOW! N-LIGHTENMENT *NOW!* YOU'RE JUST TH'OU'GHT AWAY FROM COMING UP Y'OUR WAY. FIND OUT HOW TO *FIND OUT!* WHAT YOU DO IS UP TO YOU! THE WAY TO *SEE* *IS* UCP! *DO* UCP AND SEE! O --- ) \ Konchok Penday Research & Technical W'RIghT'ER Integrator: Universal Consciousness Plot http://net-prophet.net/ucp/chart.htm Formulator and Disseminator of the Universal Conscious Practice: http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ Recipient of the Alex Yakovlev Technical hExcellence Award :-) Flounder & Prophet Gods Church: http://net-prophet.net/gc/ Philosophy & Holistic Health eBook: http://net-prophet.net/tddup/ REvolutionary Architectural System: http://net-prophet.net/subs/ Better Banjo Bureau http://net-prophet.net/bbb/ Cottage Industries http://net-prophet.net/ci/ ########################################### N-LIGHTENMENT! . . . RIGHT! . . . NOW! WHAT THE BUDDHA SOUGHT IS FOUND! YOU CAN LEARN IT FREE TODAY! http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ *DO* THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PRACTICE! *COMPARE* PAST AND FUTURE TO PRESENT! YOU CAN RAISE YOUR OWN AWARENESS NOW! USE THE FREE VIRTUAL WITNESS ONLINE NOW! UCP: TRANSFORMING AWARENESS SINCE THE SECOND MILLENNIUM, ONE BODHISATTVA AT A TIME! ########################################### Your KosmiK KicKbacK to KP@net-prophet.net via paypal.com helps others Find, Learn and DO UCP! GET YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW! http://net-prophet.net RE-EVALUATION COUNSELORS: RE-EVALUATE! EXIT COUNSELORS: UCP CURES $CIENTOLOGY! UU + SOMinisters: UCP IS *THE* RATIONAL MIND! UCP USENET POSTS: alt.clearing.technology, and coming soon to an ALT.UCP newsgroup near you! Newsreader = http://forteinc.com/agent/freagent.htm ANONYMOUS POSTS *WELCOME!* USE A NICK! UCP *NEWS SERVER* COMING SOON: ucp.ath.cx "UCP EMAIL LIST" To subscribe to this group, send an email to: ucplist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com UCP POSTS PARTIAL ARCHIVE AT: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ UCP SITE PARTIAL MIRROR NOW AT: http://www.universalconsciouspractice.bravepages.com/ >===================================================================== >Any critisizm and suggestions welcome. > >If anyone wants to upload any other UCP materials, >please let me know. > > >Best wishes, >Alex > >http://www.net-prophet.net/ucp/ - N-Lightenment Now for free >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/ - join UCP List ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-847-1021832211-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 18:16:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.105]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JIGH606709 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:16:17 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-847-1021832211-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 18:16:52 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 18:16:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 55105 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 18:16:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 18:16:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 18:16:51 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.163]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA29118 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:16:48 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020519111229.014733d8@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:12:29 -0700 Subject: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 OH FUCK! I've been limping along for a few weeks now with just Homer's free ACT and ARS news feed. Since I had been subscribing to 85+ news groups, this was very constricting,. I really like the exceptionally good speed and completeness of Homer's news server. The only problem with it is Homer's psychOTic behavior . . . He is desperately committed to making UCP a subset of Hubbards fraudulent hypnOTic catastrophic scam, and when I won't go along with that he cuts me off. I decided that relying on his flip-flop service is very foolish, so I started looking for a reliable news server. I tried out teranews.com, which accepted my debit card for a no payment, but was useless because it only had a fraction of the articles in ACT and ARS that Homer's server did. Forget that! When I tried to switch back I lost *ALL* of my newsgroups and stored articles. I have a backup that's only about 10 days old, and there is a huge amount of data in it, but for some reason my Agent is not reading it properly. Either it's scrambled or something else is wrong, so right now I don't even have Homer's free ACT and ARS feed. *BUMMER!* As it stands today, I have ZERO news access, and NO access to my last few years of work threaded. I don't know if it's totally gone, or I just can't see it right now. And I'm looking for a new news reader, that works as well as Agent [I *LOVE* Agent, except when it can't find my data] and stores the news is OPEN file format. I WANT IT TO THREAD THE ARTICLES! An unthreaded news reader has NO clue! I have most of the articles as Eudora files, so I haven't lost the primary data, but they are NOT threaded or dated and are NOT in easy-to-use news format or *AS POSTED* and of course they don't have message IDs so you can't search for them very precisely. So as it stands now I do *NOT* have a copy of the UCP PUBLIC RECORD. I have a CD with about 500 megs of backed-up Free Agent and Agent files, which might be good data that I can't read for some reason because my Agent has deconfigured itself, OR large parts of them might be scrambled and completely useless because the data base compression was done by my computer with bad memory for the last year. If Alex, Alex or anyone else wants a CD with my latest news backups on it, I'd be happy to send them a copy. I also have earlier backup CD's . . . but of course they lack my recent work, and I don't know if they are readable either. I believed them all to be, until I needed them! Maybe some of the computer or news experts can descramble and decompress it . . . or just tell us that it really is totally useless garbage. Looking back on my experience, I HATE compressed databases. Somehow they always seem to "SAVE SPACE" by ERASING or DELETING ALL MY DATA! And I HATE file formats that require specialized proprietary programs to read them. USELESS! That's where I am right now. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-848-1021832683-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 18:24:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JIO7611354 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:24:07 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-848-1021832683-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 18:24:43 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 18:24:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 27111 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 18:24:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 18:24:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 18:24:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4JIO1510882; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:24:01 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020519021007.00b39a68@net-prophet.net> Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 18:24:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] UCP Archive 2001-2002 uploaded to UCP-List Files section Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: [Alex writes:] > >You can find UCP Archive at the UCP-List > >Files Section: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ Dear Alex, I also am deeply appreciative of your efforts to make these files available. However I am unable to access the files on yahoo server. The same issue occurs here that I have gone through *ad nauseum* on another list, to no avail. In brief, something is busted in yahoo software that makes it impossible to register from a non-graphic browser. And yahoo has recently changed some policy which results in the archive section called "public," formerly available to anyone, to now be available only to that segment of the public who is registered with yahoo. So my request, if Konchok is willing, is to post a duplicate set of files somewhere, available to public access. That would avoid the problems associated with the yahoo registration, including giving them stats and forgetting passwords, etc. I agree with Konchok that the posts need to be entire. I have 100 MB free at the moment, on my website, which should suffice :) and which I will offer. My long view is that the best chance of preserving the integrity of the record of the remarkable development of UCP is to disperse it widely. One *might* be able to alter-is one copy of something, but not a hundred or a thousand copies. There is evidence that there is a concerted effort to alter original LRH documents; there is evidence that original words of Jesus have been suppressed for over a millenium by the Church; Islamic scholars dispute endlessly whether certain passages of Koran have been altered or added to; Hebrew scholars point at certain passages of Torah as showing "the dread hand of the redactor"; and a Chinese scholar with whom I once lived, told endless stories of alteration, forgery, miscopied characters, language changes. . .and on-and-on. Konchok's efforts (at least since I came in) seem to have been devoted mostly, not to explaining the tech, which is almost absurdly simple to explain, but in preventing others from making it into something which it is NOT. Absent this voluminous opposition to distortions perpetrated by the ignorant -- or the willfully ignorant, a future generation might be able to argue that, "surely Konchok meant this and not that!" Of course the best way to protect the tech is to use it, and teach your friends to use it. ;) Well, those are my thoughts this morning. What do you think Alex, Konchok? abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org ================ full text below =================== > Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:10:07 -0700 > From: Net Prophet > Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com > To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [UCP-List] UCP Archive 2001-2002 uploaded to UCP-List Files > section > > > > [second reply by KP] > > At 04:50 PM 5/14/2002 -0000, Alex Buksdorf wrote: > >Hello All, > > > >I finally uploaded long promised UCP Archive to > >the UCP-List File section, so far only for > >2001 & 2002 (Jan-Apr). > > > >I'm still working on 1999 & 2000. > > > >I'm gonna update it every month. > > > >I also uploaded the complete TechTalks Series > >(some are missing on the UCP websight). > > > >UCP Archive is compressed into a number of zip-files. > > > >Here is the Readme file included in each zip-file: > > > >===================================================================== > > > > READ THIS FIRST: > > > >UCP Archive includes many posts on > >the subject of UCP from the Usenet newsgroup > >alt.clearing.technology (ACT) from 1999 to > >present (and now also from UCP-List and alt.ucp). > > > >It contains a wealth of UCP discussions which > >clarify many UCP points, success stories, > >session reports, UCP news, etc. > > > >You can find UCP Archive at the UCP-List > >Files Section: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ > > > >It consists of a number of zipped files, which > >you can download to your hard drive, unzip > >to a folder by any of zip-unzip programs like > >Winzip and read off-line. > > > >The posts are arranged in chronological order. > > > >Names of the files containing posts has the > >following structure: > > > >YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM , > > > >where > >YYYY-MM-DD - date of the post, > >HH-MM - time of the post (GMT), > > - full or partial post subject. > > > > > >In order to make UCP Archive more compact and to > >avoid redandencies I did the following: > > > Dear Alex: > > I am STILL *THRILLED* that you have archived my posts, > but upon reconsideration I have STRONG disagreement with > your editing of my posts. I *DO NOT* WRITE TO BE MORE > COMPACT. I WRITE TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE TO > SAY. IT TAKES EXACTLY AS MANY WORDS AS I USE. > > I DO NOT WRITE to avoid redundancies. That is YOUR purpose. > > >1) Since majority of the posts are by Konchok Penday (KP) > >and his signature is pretty long, I excluded it from > >his posts. You can see KP's current signature at > > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/UCP%20Archive/KP%27s% > >20Signature > > THIS IS ALTER-IS/SUBSTITUE/LIABILITY. > > I *OBJECT* to having my posts edited. > > MY SIG IS THE MOST IMPORTANT > PART OF EVERY POST I WRITE. > > My continuously changing sig file > IS PART OF EVERY POST. > > It's a SIGnificant part of the history. > > My old sigs are *NOT* EQUAL to my new sigs. > > DELETING MY SIG and then replacing it with > a DIFFERENT sig is MISREPRESENTATION. > > That's like having an abridged version of the constitution, > which leaves off the signatures to save space in books. > > If you are going to archive my posts, archive MY POSTS. > > Don't archive what you think I ought to have written INSTEAD. > > If people don't want to read my sig . . . FINE! > > If people DO want to read my sig . . . NOW THEY CAN'T! > > If saving bandwidth and hard drive space was > my governing purpose, I WOULD NOT SPEAK. > > I HAVE *NO* SUCH PURPOSE! > > IT'S NOT RELEVANT > TO MY PURPOSES. > > > or > >http://www.net-prophet.net/ucp/main/sigfile.htm > > > >2) Because KP usually replies to UCP posts by others and > >quotes them in full, I didn't include original posts in > >this case, only KP's replies. > > Again, this is a MISREPRESENTATION of > both my post and what I was replying to. > > The original poster has a right to have his words > read INTACT AND UNINTERRUPTED. I leave > the original post intact when I reply to it when I > think it SHOULD be there. You cannot follow the > sense of it smoothly when it's all chopped up by > my line-by-line or even phrase-by-phrase replies. > > YOU NEED *BOTH* SECTIONS OF TEXT. > > I LEAVE IT IN BECAUSE I *WANT* IT LEFT IN! > > BECAUSE IT'S *NOT THE SAME* WITHOUT IT. > > >3) I didn't include KP's slicing & dicing posts unless > >they explicitly discuss/clarify some UCP points. > > Leaving out entire posts is FINE with me. > EDITING my posts sincerely annoys me. > > Once you have deleted WHAT I am replying > to, PLUS my sig, all we have to do is delete > all the insults and run spell check to convert > Konchok Penday into KEN DOLL BLATHER. > > To save 1/10 of a second download time! > > WHAT'S UP WIT DAT? > > It looks like a SUBSTITUTE purpose to me! > > How many tenths of a second does it take > to *WONDER* WHAT WAS CENSORED, > WHICH NOW CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD. > > Once you start *ANY EDITING*, you are > NO LONGER ARCHIVING, YOU ARE NOW > ALTER-ISING and making UNKNOWABLE. > > I said what I said. > > *ANYTHING* else is > a misrepresentation. > > I'd MUCH rarther have edited archives than no archives. > > I'D *MUCH* RATHER HAVE *ACCURATE* ARCHIVES! > > Which means . . . *ZERO* EDITS! > > >Alex Buksdorf, > >UCP-List owner > > Again, I am THRILLED you are archiving my posts! > > However, to be honest and blunt, I must add that > I am NOT happy you spent what must be HUGE > amounts of your time ALTER-ISING MY POSTS > to conform them to how you think they should be. > > I *DO NOT* think of that as an improvement. > > I'd *MUCH* rather have them INTACT! > > If that takes an extra three minutes to download > > . . . SO WHAT? It's not relevant! > > Best Wishes, > > WE'LCOME TO > *ACTUALLITY!* > > THANK YOU FORECHOOSING YOUR > ROLE IN THE COSMIC DRAMA NOW! > > RESET YOUR SELF! > REBOOT YOUR MIND! > RECOMPILE YOUR BIOS > REINSTALL RATIONALITY > DEBUG AND UPGRADE > YOUR OWN OPE'RA'TING > SYSTEM . . . RIGHT! NOW! > N-LIGHTENMENT *NOW!* > > YOU'RE JUST TH'OU'GHT AWAY > FROM COMING UP Y'OUR WAY. > > FIND OUT HOW > TO *FIND OUT!* > > WHAT YOU DO > IS UP TO YOU! > > THE WAY > TO *SEE* > *IS* UCP! > > *DO* UCP > AND SEE! > > > O > --- ) > \ > > > Konchok Penday > > Research & Technical W'RIghT'ER > Integrator: Universal Consciousness Plot > http://net-prophet.net/ucp/chart.htm > Formulator and Disseminator of the > Universal Conscious Practice: > http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ > Recipient of the Alex Yakovlev > Technical hExcellence Award :-) > Flounder & Prophet Gods Church: > http://net-prophet.net/gc/ > Philosophy & Holistic Health eBook: > http://net-prophet.net/tddup/ > REvolutionary Architectural System: > http://net-prophet.net/subs/ > Better Banjo Bureau > http://net-prophet.net/bbb/ > Cottage Industries > http://net-prophet.net/ci/ > > > ########################################### > > N-LIGHTENMENT! . . . RIGHT! . . . NOW! > WHAT THE BUDDHA SOUGHT IS FOUND! > YOU CAN LEARN IT FREE TODAY! > http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ > > *DO* THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PRACTICE! > *COMPARE* PAST AND FUTURE TO PRESENT! > > YOU CAN RAISE YOUR OWN AWARENESS NOW! > USE THE FREE VIRTUAL WITNESS ONLINE NOW! > > UCP: TRANSFORMING AWARENESS > SINCE THE SECOND MILLENNIUM, > ONE BODHISATTVA AT A TIME! > > ########################################### > > > Your KosmiK KicKbacK to KP@net-prophet.net via > paypal.com helps others Find, Learn and DO UCP! > > GET YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW! http://net-prophet.net > RE-EVALUATION COUNSELORS: RE-EVALUATE! > EXIT COUNSELORS: UCP CURES $CIENTOLOGY! > UU + SOMinisters: UCP IS *THE* RATIONAL MIND! > > UCP USENET POSTS: alt.clearing.technology, and > coming soon to an ALT.UCP newsgroup near you! > Newsreader = http://forteinc.com/agent/freagent.htm > ANONYMOUS POSTS *WELCOME!* USE A NICK! > UCP *NEWS SERVER* COMING SOON: ucp.ath.cx > > "UCP EMAIL LIST" > To subscribe to this group, send an email to: > ucplist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > UCP POSTS PARTIAL ARCHIVE AT: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ > UCP SITE PARTIAL MIRROR NOW AT: > http://www.universalconsciouspractice.bravepages.com/ > > > >===================================================================== > > > >Any critisizm and suggestions welcome. > > > >If anyone wants to upload any other UCP materials, > >please let me know. > > > > > >Best wishes, > >Alex > > > >http://www.net-prophet.net/ucp/ - N-Lightenment Now for free > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/ - join UCP List :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-849-1021833386-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 18:35:51 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.79]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JIZp618300 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:35:51 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-849-1021833386-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 18:36:26 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 18:36:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 48230 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 18:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 18:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 18:36:25 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.163]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA31869 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 13:36:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020519113208.01473630@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:32:08 -0700 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 At 05:12 AM 5/19/2002 +0000, you wrote: >On Sun, 19 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > >> --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: >> > > And another litarary quote: >> > > "Everything is in the hands of Allah" >> > > "But don't forget, the entire world, including Allah, is in the >> > > mind of Buddha!" >> > > "Yes, but the mind of Buddha is in the hands of Allah." >> > > V.Pelevin (quoting by memory) >> > >> > If you can hold this intently enough it might just shoot you through >> > the roof! >> >> That's pretty much what happens in the novel (I think it is "Prince >> of Gosplan"). Check out this writer, he really has an interesting >> take on things. Most of his works has been translated into English. > >Hope to do that. >So many books so little time. (How's that for a persuasive lie?) > >> > In Newton's world, cause and effect are arbitrarily named. One >> > effect is cause for the next effect and so on, forward or backward >> > in time. But perpendicular to this linear stream of events, which I >> > am pleased to call Creation, or Total Effect, is the world of >> > Creator, or Total Cause, which in reality is the world we inhabit. >> > Cause and effect in the sense it is usually used is just tags on a >> > process of manifest effect. Science is arrogant because it somehow >> > can't grok that. >> >> It actually does, but not in the usual Newtonian model. Quantum >> mechanics has a rather more enlightened approach. The existence of >> lasers and computers testifies that it is also a very workable >> approach. >Some *scientists* speak of what is beyond the reach of science, but my >impression is that they are in the minority -- although a very creative >minority. But QM seems on the verge of obsolescence, in favor of >super-strings -- if only the mathematics were more tractable. Quantum >computers might help here. As it is, because the equations are so highly >recursive, all the computing power on Earth now, if harnessed to the >task, would take over a hundred years to solve the first hard equation. >The approximations do not suffice for bringing the theory to maturity. I >do not understand the details. What I do understand is elegant and >beautiful, in contrast to QM, which although useful is ugly. Is there >such a thing as an ugly truth? Quantum Mechanics is an INSANE theory based on accurate mathematics. The SANE theory produces the same math. If you are interested in understanding physics, start here: http://net-prophet.net/nobul/rado/rado.htm . . . especially if you appreciate elegance and beauty! KP >> > > > (Many of his thought-objects are in conflict). >> > > >> > > Yes and no. Conflicts are also a consideration. If a tree falls >> in a >> > > forest and noone sees it, is there a conflict? :) >> > >> > The key word here is "many" ;) >> >> My point was that nothing is in conflict until someone considers it >> to be in conflict. Someone should come along and say "You cannothave >> it both ways" > >Some one pointed out that the Darwinian struggle for survival, wherein >all creatures are in competition, can also be seen as a vast system of >cooperation, wherein all creatures collaborate for mutual benefit. >Sometimes it's like those little grids of boxes where you see all the >boxes as concavities; then if you blink your eyes they all turn into >convexities. Maybe you CAN have it both ways; just not both ways at >once. I have never been able to see some of the boxes as empty and some >as closed and opaque. > >> > > >> > > LSD does that to you =) >> > >> > To whom? I have told some excellent lies on LSD. But that is another >> > story for another time. ;) >> >> I guess that's individual. But, anyway, I was referring to the author >> of "Lazy Man's Guide", Mr. Golas, a big connoiseur of lysergic acid >> diethylamide. > >Oh. I read that book a long time ago. I think in the mid 70s. I don't >remember that part. > >Thanks for your thoughts. > > abner > >abner@sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:) > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-850-1021838690-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 20:04:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JK4EJ11380 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 20:04:14 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-850-1021838690-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 20:04:50 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 20:04:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 47194 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 20:04:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 20:04:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 20:04:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4JK47m11236; Sun, 19 May 2002 20:04:07 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020519111229.014733d8@net-prophet.net> Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:04:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 Dear Konchok- You raise many issues below, and I'm not clear about some of them, so I will just comment as I go: On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:12:29 -0700 > From: Net Prophet > Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com > To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! > > > > OH FUCK! > > > I've been limping along for a few > weeks now with just Homer's free > ACT and ARS news feed. Since I > had been subscribing to 85+ news > groups, this was very constricting,. > > I really like the exceptionally good > speed and completeness of Homer's > news server. The only problem with > it is Homer's psychOTic behavior . . . > He is desperately committed to making > UCP a subset of Hubbards fraudulent > hypnOTic catastrophic scam, and when > I won't go along with that he cuts me off. > > I decided that relying on his flip-flop > service is very foolish, so I started > looking for a reliable news server. > > I tried out teranews.com, > which accepted my debit card > for a no payment, but was useless > because it only had a fraction of > the articles in ACT and ARS that > Homer's server did. Forget that! Do you mean a fraction of the *articles* or a fraction of the *newsgroups*? My news server has over 24,000 articles posted to ACT dating back 9 months. > When I tried to switch back I > lost *ALL* of my newsgroups > and stored articles. I have a > backup that's only about 10 > days old, and there is a huge > amount of data in it, but for > some reason my Agent is not > reading it properly. Either it's > scrambled or something else > is wrong, so right now I don't > even have Homer's free ACT > and ARS feed. *BUMMER!* Is the backup compressed or not? You might try looking at it with a text editor, like notepad or something and see what you can discover. Do you not have Homer's feed because Homer cut you off, or because Agent is not reconfigured properly? I suppose you have tried rebooting several times? Sometimes Windows doesn't get it until the third reboot. Also consider re-installing Agent. ;( > As it stands today, I have > ZERO news access, and > NO access to my last few > years of work threaded. > > I don't know if it's totally gone, > or I just can't see it right now. Again, see if you can load it into a text editor. If it looks like text, the chances are that the files are OK. > And I'm looking for a new news reader, > that works as well as Agent [I *LOVE* > Agent, except when it can't find my data] > and stores the news is OPEN file format. Tin is regarded by many as the best newsreader. But I don't know if there is a Windows version. Otherwise you would need to run it on Linux or some flavor of Unix. It might be ported to OS-X by now. I haven't checked. > I WANT IT TO THREAD THE ARTICLES! > An unthreaded news reader has NO clue! Tin will thread or un-thread the articles. I believe the articles are stored in the order they are received. Then the software scans the headers and makes an index. Using the index information only it can present the articles to the user in whatever arrangement he requires. > I have most of the articles as Eudora files, > so I haven't lost the primary data, but they > are NOT threaded or dated and are NOT in > easy-to-use news format or *AS POSTED* > and of course they don't have message IDs > so you can't search for them very precisely. These would be the original articles, before they were posted? > So as it stands now I do *NOT* have > a copy of the UCP PUBLIC RECORD. As posted where, to ACT? > I have a CD with about 500 megs of backed-up > Free Agent and Agent files, which might be good > data that I can't read for some reason because > my Agent has deconfigured itself, OR large parts > of them might be scrambled and completely useless > because the data base compression was done by > my computer with bad memory for the last year. What kind of compression? Did you zip them? Or something else? > If Alex, Alex or anyone else wants a CD with my > latest news backups on it, I'd be happy to send > them a copy. I also have earlier backup CD's > . . . but of course they lack my recent work, > and I don't know if they are readable either. > I believed them all to be, until I needed them! My guess is that if your computer difficulties are recent, that the CDs are OK. > Maybe some of the computer or news experts > can descramble and decompress it . . . or just > tell us that it really is totally useless garbage. Item 1) One of my clients had some Eudora and Outlook mail that needed sending, but the machine connected to the network was down. I took the files and put them on a Linux box. They loaded perfectly into Pine, despite the top "From " line being missing. Item 2) Pine stores mail and news on the same spool. Ergo the file formats are compatible. So, I would guess that unless Agent does something really weird to the files that they should be readable by another news or mail reader. > Looking back on my experience, I HATE compressed > databases. Somehow they always seem to "SAVE > SPACE" by ERASING or DELETING ALL MY DATA! I won't even guess on this one. If they were zipped, there are utilities to repair mangled zip files. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. > And I HATE file formats that require specialized > proprietary programs to read them. USELESS! Is Agent one of these? > That's where I am right now. In summary, ease your mind about one thing: your last 9 months of Usenet postings are recoverable from my server without much difficulty. Tin should be able to thread them for you. > KP abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-851-1021850041-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 23:13:26 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.67]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JNDPh08087 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:13:25 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-851-1021850041-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 23:14:01 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 23:13:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 43325 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 23:13:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 23:13:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 23:13:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 23:13:58 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 65.94.193.245 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:13:57 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: Hm. I don't want to dwell too much on this subject, because IMHO, it is off-topic for this group, but I'll interejcts a few comments here/ > Some *scientists* speak of what is beyond the reach of science, but my > impression is that they are in the minority -- although a very creative > minority. But QM seems on the verge of obsolescence, in favor of > super-strings -- if only the mathematics were more tractable. Hm. Reading pop science literature might led one to believe that super-strings somehow supercede quantum theory, but thsi is not correct. Superstring theory (and most of its competitors) is a 100% quantum theory. It is built on top of the basic quantum mechanics, like high-school algebra is built on top of arithmetics. What is being discarded is the notion that everything is built out of infinitely small pointlike particles. This notion has been giving scientists headaches for more than 100 years by now, it's good to see it go. > computers might help here. As it is, because the equations are so highly > recursive, all the computing power on Earth now, if harnessed to the > task, would take over a hundred years to solve the first hard equation. I am not sure which equation are you talking about. My understanding of the situation is that the main problem is that the superstring theory is not yet at the point where it can make definite predictions. And if a thory does not make predictions, it is impossible to verify. > The approximations do not suffice for bringing the theory to maturity. I > do not understand the details. What I do understand is elegant and > beautiful, in contrast to QM, which although useful is ugly. I believe you are thinking of something that is called "Standard Model of Particle Physics", not QM as such. Standard Model is just a collection of known facts about particles, with little rhyme or reason to it. It really is ugly. Somewhat unfortuantely, it is also astonishingly efficient and workable, which makes any attempts to change it a very hard endeavour indeed. In contrast, Quantum mechanics is a very simple and elegant theory, however very counterintuitive. (Should not be a surprise, for all our experience concerns thins far larger than atoms and molecules) (for KP) As of Rado's theory, that KP quotes, it is hard to make any definite judgement based on what he writes on his web page, but theories of that *type* (that is theories of "aether")were very popular in 18th- 19th century. The problem with them is that when you try to make them fit all the known facts, the properties of aether turn out to be a very strange indeed. An example: Aether cannot be a liquid or a gas (as it is commonly thought of) because liquids and gases vibrate *only* along the path of the wave, while light, on the other hand, vibrates *only* sideways. Solids can vibrate sideways but they also can vibrate along. So, aether gotta be a very strange stuff indeed. best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-852-1021850279-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 23:17:25 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.85]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JNHOh11254 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:17:24 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-852-1021850279-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 23:18:00 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 23:17:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 29039 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 23:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 23:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 23:17:59 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.150]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07352 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:17:55 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020519161317.01473630@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020519021007.00b39a68@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:13:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] UCP Archive 2001-2002 uploaded to UCP-List Files section Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 At 06:24 PM 5/19/2002 +0000, you wrote: >On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > >[Alex writes:] >> >You can find UCP Archive at the UCP-List >> >Files Section: >> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ Abner replies: >Dear Alex, > >I also am deeply appreciative of your efforts to make these files >available. However I am unable to access the files on yahoo server. >The same issue occurs here that I have gone through *ad nauseum* on >another list, to no avail. > >In brief, something is busted in yahoo software that makes it impossible >to register from a non-graphic browser. And yahoo has recently changed >some policy which results in the archive section called "public," >formerly available to anyone, to now be available only to that segment of >the public who is registered with yahoo. More commercial site yahoo bullshit! >So my request, if Konchok is willing, is to post a duplicate set of >files somewhere, available to public access. PLEASE DO! I'll link to them from my website! >That would avoid the >problems associated with the yahoo registration, including giving them >stats and forgetting passwords, etc. I hate that crap! >I agree with Konchok that the posts need to be entire. I have 100 MB >free at the moment, on my website, which should suffice :) and which I >will offer. PLEASE DO! >My long view is that the best chance of preserving the integrity >of the record of the remarkable development of UCP is to disperse it >widely. One *might* be able to alter-is one copy of something, but not >a hundred or a thousand copies. EXACTLY MY THOUGHT! >There is evidence that there is a concerted effort to alter original LRH >documents; there is evidence that original words of Jesus have been >suppressed for over a millenium by the Church; Islamic scholars dispute >endlessly whether certain passages of Koran have been altered or added >to; Hebrew scholars point at certain passages of Torah as showing "the >dread hand of the redactor"; and a Chinese scholar with whom I once >lived, told endless stories of alteration, forgery, miscopied >characters, language changes. . .and on-and-on. The entire SUBSTITUTE history! >Konchok's efforts (at least since I came in) seem to have been devoted >mostly, not to explaining the tech, which is almost absurdly simple to >explain, but in preventing others from making it into something which it >is NOT. YES! >Absent this voluminous opposition to distortions perpetrated by the >ignorant -- or the willfully ignorant, a future generation might be able >to argue that, "surely Konchok meant this and not that!" Yes! >Of course the best way to protect the tech is to use it, and teach your >friends to use it. ;) YES! >Well, those are my thoughts this morning. What do you think Alex, >Konchok? > > abner >abner@sdf.lonestar.org PLEASE DO! Thanks for writing! KP >================ full text below =================== >> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 02:10:07 -0700 >> From: Net Prophet >> Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com >> To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [UCP-List] UCP Archive 2001-2002 uploaded to UCP-List Files >> section >> >> >> >> [second reply by KP] >> >> At 04:50 PM 5/14/2002 -0000, Alex Buksdorf wrote: >> >Hello All, >> > >> >I finally uploaded long promised UCP Archive to >> >the UCP-List File section, so far only for >> >2001 & 2002 (Jan-Apr). >> > >> >I'm still working on 1999 & 2000. >> > >> >I'm gonna update it every month. >> > >> >I also uploaded the complete TechTalks Series >> >(some are missing on the UCP websight). >> > >> >UCP Archive is compressed into a number of zip-files. >> > >> >Here is the Readme file included in each zip-file: >> > >> >===================================================================== >> > >> > READ THIS FIRST: >> > >> >UCP Archive includes many posts on >> >the subject of UCP from the Usenet newsgroup >> >alt.clearing.technology (ACT) from 1999 to >> >present (and now also from UCP-List and alt.ucp). >> > >> >It contains a wealth of UCP discussions which >> >clarify many UCP points, success stories, >> >session reports, UCP news, etc. >> > >> >You can find UCP Archive at the UCP-List >> >Files Section: >> > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ >> > >> >It consists of a number of zipped files, which >> >you can download to your hard drive, unzip >> >to a folder by any of zip-unzip programs like >> >Winzip and read off-line. >> > >> >The posts are arranged in chronological order. >> > >> >Names of the files containing posts has the >> >following structure: >> > >> >YYYY-MM-DD HH-MM , >> > >> >where >> >YYYY-MM-DD - date of the post, >> >HH-MM - time of the post (GMT), >> > - full or partial post subject. >> > >> > >> >In order to make UCP Archive more compact and to >> >avoid redandencies I did the following: >> >> >> Dear Alex: >> >> I am STILL *THRILLED* that you have archived my posts, >> but upon reconsideration I have STRONG disagreement with >> your editing of my posts. I *DO NOT* WRITE TO BE MORE >> COMPACT. I WRITE TO SAY EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE TO >> SAY. IT TAKES EXACTLY AS MANY WORDS AS I USE. >> >> I DO NOT WRITE to avoid redundancies. That is YOUR purpose. >> >> >1) Since majority of the posts are by Konchok Penday (KP) >> >and his signature is pretty long, I excluded it from >> >his posts. You can see KP's current signature at >> > >> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/UCP%20Archive/KP%27s% >> >20Signature >> >> THIS IS ALTER-IS/SUBSTITUE/LIABILITY. >> >> I *OBJECT* to having my posts edited. >> >> MY SIG IS THE MOST IMPORTANT >> PART OF EVERY POST I WRITE. >> >> My continuously changing sig file >> IS PART OF EVERY POST. >> >> It's a SIGnificant part of the history. >> >> My old sigs are *NOT* EQUAL to my new sigs. >> >> DELETING MY SIG and then replacing it with >> a DIFFERENT sig is MISREPRESENTATION. >> >> That's like having an abridged version of the constitution, >> which leaves off the signatures to save space in books. >> >> If you are going to archive my posts, archive MY POSTS. >> >> Don't archive what you think I ought to have written INSTEAD. >> >> If people don't want to read my sig . . . FINE! >> >> If people DO want to read my sig . . . NOW THEY CAN'T! >> >> If saving bandwidth and hard drive space was >> my governing purpose, I WOULD NOT SPEAK. >> >> I HAVE *NO* SUCH PURPOSE! >> >> IT'S NOT RELEVANT >> TO MY PURPOSES. >> >> > or >> >http://www.net-prophet.net/ucp/main/sigfile.htm >> > >> >2) Because KP usually replies to UCP posts by others and >> >quotes them in full, I didn't include original posts in >> >this case, only KP's replies. >> >> Again, this is a MISREPRESENTATION of >> both my post and what I was replying to. >> >> The original poster has a right to have his words >> read INTACT AND UNINTERRUPTED. I leave >> the original post intact when I reply to it when I >> think it SHOULD be there. You cannot follow the >> sense of it smoothly when it's all chopped up by >> my line-by-line or even phrase-by-phrase replies. >> >> YOU NEED *BOTH* SECTIONS OF TEXT. >> >> I LEAVE IT IN BECAUSE I *WANT* IT LEFT IN! >> >> BECAUSE IT'S *NOT THE SAME* WITHOUT IT. >> >> >3) I didn't include KP's slicing & dicing posts unless >> >they explicitly discuss/clarify some UCP points. >> >> Leaving out entire posts is FINE with me. >> EDITING my posts sincerely annoys me. >> >> Once you have deleted WHAT I am replying >> to, PLUS my sig, all we have to do is delete >> all the insults and run spell check to convert >> Konchok Penday into KEN DOLL BLATHER. >> >> To save 1/10 of a second download time! >> >> WHAT'S UP WIT DAT? >> >> It looks like a SUBSTITUTE purpose to me! >> >> How many tenths of a second does it take >> to *WONDER* WHAT WAS CENSORED, >> WHICH NOW CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD. >> >> Once you start *ANY EDITING*, you are >> NO LONGER ARCHIVING, YOU ARE NOW >> ALTER-ISING and making UNKNOWABLE. >> >> I said what I said. >> >> *ANYTHING* else is >> a misrepresentation. >> >> I'd MUCH rarther have edited archives than no archives. >> >> I'D *MUCH* RATHER HAVE *ACCURATE* ARCHIVES! >> >> Which means . . . *ZERO* EDITS! >> >> >Alex Buksdorf, >> >UCP-List owner >> >> Again, I am THRILLED you are archiving my posts! >> >> However, to be honest and blunt, I must add that >> I am NOT happy you spent what must be HUGE >> amounts of your time ALTER-ISING MY POSTS >> to conform them to how you think they should be. >> >> I *DO NOT* think of that as an improvement. >> >> I'd *MUCH* rather have them INTACT! >> >> If that takes an extra three minutes to download >> >> . . . SO WHAT? It's not relevant! >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> WE'LCOME TO >> *ACTUALLITY!* >> >> THANK YOU FORECHOOSING YOUR >> ROLE IN THE COSMIC DRAMA NOW! >> >> RESET YOUR SELF! >> REBOOT YOUR MIND! >> RECOMPILE YOUR BIOS >> REINSTALL RATIONALITY >> DEBUG AND UPGRADE >> YOUR OWN OPE'RA'TING >> SYSTEM . . . RIGHT! NOW! >> N-LIGHTENMENT *NOW!* >> >> YOU'RE JUST TH'OU'GHT AWAY >> FROM COMING UP Y'OUR WAY. >> >> FIND OUT HOW >> TO *FIND OUT!* >> >> WHAT YOU DO >> IS UP TO YOU! >> >> THE WAY >> TO *SEE* >> *IS* UCP! >> >> *DO* UCP >> AND SEE! >> >> >> O >> --- ) >> \ >> >> >> Konchok Penday >> >> Research & Technical W'RIghT'ER >> Integrator: Universal Consciousness Plot >> http://net-prophet.net/ucp/chart.htm >> Formulator and Disseminator of the >> Universal Conscious Practice: >> http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ >> Recipient of the Alex Yakovlev >> Technical hExcellence Award :-) >> Flounder & Prophet Gods Church: >> http://net-prophet.net/gc/ >> Philosophy & Holistic Health eBook: >> http://net-prophet.net/tddup/ >> REvolutionary Architectural System: >> http://net-prophet.net/subs/ >> Better Banjo Bureau >> http://net-prophet.net/bbb/ >> Cottage Industries >> http://net-prophet.net/ci/ >> >> >> ########################################### >> >> N-LIGHTENMENT! . . . RIGHT! . . . NOW! >> WHAT THE BUDDHA SOUGHT IS FOUND! >> YOU CAN LEARN IT FREE TODAY! >> http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ >> >> *DO* THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PRACTICE! >> *COMPARE* PAST AND FUTURE TO PRESENT! >> >> YOU CAN RAISE YOUR OWN AWARENESS NOW! >> USE THE FREE VIRTUAL WITNESS ONLINE NOW! >> >> UCP: TRANSFORMING AWARENESS >> SINCE THE SECOND MILLENNIUM, >> ONE BODHISATTVA AT A TIME! >> >> ########################################### >> >> >> Your KosmiK KicKbacK to KP@net-prophet.net via >> paypal.com helps others Find, Learn and DO UCP! >> >> GET YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW! http://net-prophet.net >> RE-EVALUATION COUNSELORS: RE-EVALUATE! >> EXIT COUNSELORS: UCP CURES $CIENTOLOGY! >> UU + SOMinisters: UCP IS *THE* RATIONAL MIND! >> >> UCP USENET POSTS: alt.clearing.technology, and >> coming soon to an ALT.UCP newsgroup near you! >> Newsreader = http://forteinc.com/agent/freagent.htm >> ANONYMOUS POSTS *WELCOME!* USE A NICK! >> UCP *NEWS SERVER* COMING SOON: ucp.ath.cx >> >> "UCP EMAIL LIST" >> To subscribe to this group, send an email to: >> ucplist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> UCP POSTS PARTIAL ARCHIVE AT: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ >> UCP SITE PARTIAL MIRROR NOW AT: >> http://www.universalconsciouspractice.bravepages.com/ >> >> >> >===================================================================== >> >> >> >Any critisizm and suggestions welcome. >> > >> >If anyone wants to upload any other UCP materials, >> >please let me know. >> > >> > >> >Best wishes, >> >Alex >> > >> >http://www.net-prophet.net/ucp/ - N-Lightenment Now for free >> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/ - join UCP List > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :) > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-853-1021850283-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 23:17:27 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JNHRh11268 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:17:27 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-853-1021850283-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 23:18:03 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 23:18:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 6862 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 23:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 23:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 23:18:02 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.150]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07362 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:17:58 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020519161341.014807a8@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020519111229.014733d8@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:13:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Abner writes: >Dear Konchok- > >You raise many issues below, and I'm not clear about some of them, so I >will just comment as I go: Perfect. >On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:12:29 -0700 >> From: Net Prophet >> Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com >> To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! >> >> >> >> OH FUCK! >> >> >> I've been limping along for a few >> weeks now with just Homer's free >> ACT and ARS news feed. Since I >> had been subscribing to 85+ news >> groups, this was very constricting,. >> >> I really like the exceptionally good >> speed and completeness of Homer's >> news server. The only problem with >> it is Homer's psychOTic behavior . . . >> He is desperately committed to making >> UCP a subset of Hubbards fraudulent >> hypnOTic catastrophic scam, and when >> I won't go along with that he cuts me off. >> >> I decided that relying on his flip-flop >> service is very foolish, so I started >> looking for a reliable news server. >> >> I tried out teranews.com, >> which accepted my debit card >> for a no payment, but was useless >> because it only had a fraction of >> the articles in ACT and ARS that >> Homer's server did. Forget that! > >Do you mean a fraction of the *articles* or a fraction of the >*newsgroups*? A fraction of the articles. I took my headers list from homer's server and tried to get the bodies on teranews. MOST of the articles, new or old, were unavailable on ternanews. >My news server has over 24,000 articles posted to ACT dating back 9 >months. Cool. Homer has ACT logged forever, but I don't know how to get it from his server. >> When I tried to switch back I >> lost *ALL* of my newsgroups >> and stored articles. I have a >> backup that's only about 10 >> days old, and there is a huge >> amount of data in it, but for >> some reason my Agent is not >> reading it properly. Either it's >> scrambled or something else >> is wrong, so right now I don't >> even have Homer's free ACT >> and ARS feed. *BUMMER!* >Is the backup compressed or not? You might try looking at it with a text >editor, like notepad or something and see what you can discover. It's compressed in Agents database format. If you look at it with notepad, you see some text mixed with a lot of gibberish, which I assumed is the database compresssion. I have been unable to open it with Agent recently, and my computer is such a total state of collapse I'm on apathy on it. >Do you not have Homer's feed because Homer cut you off, or because Agent >is not reconfigured properly? Homer hasn't cut me off from his free news service of ACT and ARS, but I can't get them because agent won't let me type in a newsgroup, you HAVE to download the list of groups, which it won't do because I don't have server access for that. >I suppose you have tried rebooting several times? Sometimes Windows >doesn't get it until the third reboot. Also consider re-installing >Agent. ;( I did reinstall agent. That appears to have wiped out the articles and newsgroups I still had logged on my hard drive. >> As it stands today, I have >> ZERO news access, and >> NO access to my last few >> years of work threaded. >> >> I don't know if it's totally gone, >> or I just can't see it right now. >Again, see if you can load it into a text editor. If it looks like text, >the chances are that the files are OK. It's text mixed with gibberish. I THOUGHT that was database compression. Now I don't know. I might just be gibberish. >> And I'm looking for a new news reader, >> that works as well as Agent [I *LOVE* >> Agent, except when it can't find my data] >> and stores the news is OPEN file format. >Tin is regarded by many as the best newsreader. But I don't know if >there is a Windows version. Otherwise you would need to run it on Linux >or some flavor of Unix. It might be ported to OS-X by now. I haven't >checked. I have linux installed, but it doesn't see my modem and my mouse doesn't work right and I can see it will take me several months I don't have now to learn to use it. >> I WANT IT TO THREAD THE ARTICLES! >> An unthreaded news reader has NO clue! >Tin will thread or un-thread the articles. I believe the articles are >stored in the order they are received. Then the software scans the >headers and makes an index. Using the index information only it can >present the articles to the user in whatever arrangement he requires. Good. I think Homer uses Tin, but his articles never come up threaded. >> I have most of the articles as Eudora files, >> so I haven't lost the primary data, but they >> are NOT threaded or dated and are NOT in >> easy-to-use news format or *AS POSTED* >> and of course they don't have message IDs >> so you can't search for them very precisely. >These would be the original articles, before they were posted? Yes. I compose in eudora because one false "escape" wipes your article in Agent. Then I cut and paste from Eudora to Agent [Free Agent before that] to post to usenet. >> So as it stands now I do *NOT* have >> a copy of the UCP PUBLIC RECORD. >As posted where, to ACT? Mostly ACT, mostly starting in 1999, although I did post some as early as 1995, but was off the net for several years due to economic collapse and inability to maintain a computer system. I posted a lot to ARS, but that is mostly duplicates of the ACT stuff. I've posted to a few other newsgroups, but 95+% of my UCP work has been posted to ACT. I was posting as anyonymous@electra.lightlink.com for the first few years, until Homer blocked my access because he does not like free speech. That actually worked out for the best because my articles did not thread through the remailer. >> I have a CD with about 500 megs of backed-up >> Free Agent and Agent files, which might be good >> data that I can't read for some reason because >> my Agent has deconfigured itself, OR large parts >> of them might be scrambled and completely useless >> because the data base compression was done by >> my computer with bad memory for the last year. > >What kind of compression? Did you zip them? Or something else? No. Just the Free Agent and Agent database files, which are compressed automatically. >> If Alex, Alex or anyone else wants a CD with my >> latest news backups on it, I'd be happy to send >> them a copy. I also have earlier backup CD's >> . . . but of course they lack my recent work, >> and I don't know if they are readable either. >> I believed them all to be, until I needed them! >My guess is that if your computer difficulties are recent, that the CDs >are OK. This computer has been a nightmare since I built it about 4 or 5 years ago. It had bad memory since I had a new motherboard installed about a year ago. >> Maybe some of the computer or news experts >> can descramble and decompress it . . . or just >> tell us that it really is totally useless garbage. > >Item 1) >One of my clients had some Eudora and Outlook mail that needed sending, >but the machine connected to the network was down. I took the files and >put them on a Linux box. They loaded perfectly into Pine, despite the >top "From " line being missing. > >Item 2) >Pine stores mail and news on the same spool. Ergo the file formats are >compatible. That's wonderful! Now tell me Pine reads Agent database files! :-) >So, I would guess that unless Agent does something really weird to the >files that they should be readable by another news or mail reader. It compresses them in its own file format. Agent and Free Agent apparently use different file formats, because if you upgrade to Agent you CAN'T go back again. >> Looking back on my experience, I HATE compressed >> databases. Somehow they always seem to "SAVE >> SPACE" by ERASING or DELETING ALL MY DATA! > >I won't even guess on this one. If they were zipped, there are utilities >to repair mangled zip files. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. > >> And I HATE file formats that require specialized >> proprietary programs to read them. USELESS! > >Is Agent one of these? Yes. >> That's where I am right now. > >In summary, ease your mind about one thing: your last 9 months of Usenet >postings are recoverable from my server without much difficulty. Tin >should be able to thread them for you. > >> KP > abner >abner@sdf.lonestar.org Excellent! Homer maintains a lot of stuff at clearing.org, and has said he has a total log of ACT from the beginning, but I have no idea how to get it. My 56K modem connects at 26 to 28K, and ACT is probably gigabytes of data by now. Thanks for writing! KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-854-1021850865-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun May 19 23:27:10 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4JNR9h16981 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 23:27:10 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-854-1021850865-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 May 2002 23:27:45 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 19 May 2002 23:27:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 72631 invoked from network); 19 May 2002 23:27:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 May 2002 23:27:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 May 2002 23:27:44 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.150]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08682 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 18:27:42 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020519162347.0147ab38@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:23:47 -0700 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Oleg writes: >--- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > >Hm. I don't want to dwell too much on this subject, because IMHO, it >is off-topic for this group, but I'll interejcts a few comments here/ > >> Some *scientists* speak of what is beyond the reach of science, but >my >> impression is that they are in the minority -- although a very >creative >> minority. But QM seems on the verge of obsolescence, in favor of >> super-strings -- if only the mathematics were more tractable. > >Hm. Reading pop science literature might led one to believe that >super-strings somehow supercede quantum theory, but thsi is not >correct. Superstring theory (and most of its competitors) is a 100% >quantum theory. It is built on top of the basic quantum mechanics, >like high-school algebra is built on top of arithmetics. What is >being discarded is the notion that everything is built out of >infinitely small pointlike particles. This notion has been giving >scientists headaches for more than 100 years by now, it's good to see >it go. No, it never went away, it was just ignored for a long time because of incorrect assumptions by Michaelson-Morely. It's back and working better than ever. What is GONE are bent space, telepathic particles, time going backwards, big bangs and other insanity. >> computers might help here. As it is, because the equations are so >highly >> recursive, all the computing power on Earth now, if harnessed to the >> task, would take over a hundred years to solve the first hard >equation. > >I am not sure which equation are you talking about. My understanding >of the situation is that the main problem is that the superstring >theory is not yet at the point where it can make definite >predictions. And if a thory does not make predictions, it is >impossible to verify. > >> The approximations do not suffice for bringing the theory to >maturity. I >> do not understand the details. What I do understand is elegant and >> beautiful, in contrast to QM, which although useful is ugly. > >I believe you are thinking of something that is called "Standard >Model of Particle Physics", not QM as such. Standard Model is just a >collection of known facts about particles, with little rhyme or >reason to it. It really is ugly. Somewhat unfortuantely, it is also >astonishingly efficient and workable, which makes any attempts to >change it a very hard endeavour indeed. > >In contrast, Quantum mechanics is a very simple and elegant theory, >however very counterintuitive. (Should not be a surprise, for all our >experience concerns thins far larger than atoms and molecules) > >(for KP) >As of Rado's theory, that KP quotes, it is hard to make any definite >judgement based on what he writes on his web page, but theories of >that *type* (that is theories of "aether")were very popular in 18th- >19th century. Yes. Because they work so well! Even Einstein [that fraud] admitted that Relativity was an aether theory, when he wasn't busy denying it. Rado corrected a major error. >The problem with them is that when you try to make them >fit all the known facts, the properties of aether turn out to be a >very strange indeed. No. Extremely SIMPLE! >An example: Aether cannot be a liquid or a gas (as it is commonly >thought of) because liquids and gases vibrate *only* along the path >of the wave, while light, on the other hand, vibrates *only* >sideways. Solids can vibrate sideways but they also can vibrate >along. So, aether gotta be a very strange stuff indeed. > >best, >Oleg That's only one of many apparent contradictions which Rado solves with his corrected aether theory. I'm not a physicist, and I can't recapitulate it for you, but I remember him going through that exact point in one of his books. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-855-1021856563-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon May 20 01:02:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4K128c24723 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 01:02:08 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-855-1021856563-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 May 2002 01:02:44 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 20 May 2002 01:02:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 97369 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 01:02:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 May 2002 01:02:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 May 2002 01:02:41 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4K11xq24079; Mon, 20 May 2002 01:01:59 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020519161341.014807a8@net-prophet.net> Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 01:01:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:13:41 -0700 [KP]: > >> I tried out teranews.com, > >> which accepted my debit card > >> for a no payment, but was useless > >> because it only had a fraction of > >> the articles in ACT and ARS that > >> Homer's server did. Forget that! > > > >Do you mean a fraction of the *articles* or a fraction of the > >*newsgroups*? > > A fraction of the articles. I took my headers > list from homer's server and tried to get the > bodies on teranews. MOST of the articles, > new or old, were unavailable on ternanews. > > >My news server has over 24,000 articles posted to ACT dating back 9 > >months. > > Cool. > > Homer has ACT logged forever, but I > don't know how to get it from his server. Send him fifty bucks for a "Web-server shell account" ? I gather that would give you unrestricted access to his news feed. I don't know how he works his archives. . . > >> When I tried to switch back I > >> lost *ALL* of my newsgroups > >> and stored articles. I have a > >> backup that's only about 10 > >> days old, and there is a huge > >> amount of data in it, but for > >> some reason my Agent is not > >> reading it properly. Either it's > >> scrambled or something else > >> is wrong, so right now I don't > >> even have Homer's free ACT > >> and ARS feed. *BUMMER!* > > >Is the backup compressed or not? You might try looking at it with a text > >editor, like notepad or something and see what you can discover. > > It's compressed in Agents database format. > If you look at it with notepad, you see some > text mixed with a lot of gibberish, which I > assumed is the database compresssion. > > I have been unable to open it with Agent > recently, and my computer is such a total > state of collapse I'm on apathy on it. > > >Do you not have Homer's feed because Homer cut you off, or because Agent > >is not reconfigured properly? > > Homer hasn't cut me off from his free news service > of ACT and ARS, but I can't get them because > agent won't let me type in a newsgroup, you HAVE > to download the list of groups, which it won't do > because I don't have server access for that. Fifty bucks ;( Yeh, that's a bummer. News readers, ALL of them that I ahve seen ALL want to do that. They really index the articles by an arbitrary number, and that number is, of course, different for each news service. Lynx avoids that problem somehow. I think it just asks for the last 30 articles. If you want to read further back it just computes and asks for the 30 before that. But lynx isn't a news reader, really. > >I suppose you have tried rebooting several times? Sometimes Windows > >doesn't get it until the third reboot. Also consider re-installing > >Agent. ;( > > I did reinstall agent. That appears to have wiped out the > articles and newsgroups I still had logged on my hard drive. Well, if you want to know, you could browse the Agent directory (where it stores it's files) and see if they are still there. That's problemo numero uno. If they ARE there, say thanks to whatever deity you may believe in (or not) and move them all to a new directory. Then start fresh and see if you can get a new list from Homer's free ACT news server. That would be my strategy. It sounds like Agent is easily confused and due to the above, that is understandable. I would guess that it is trying to make requests to one news server based on lists from another news server, and that just doesn't work. > >> As it stands today, I have > >> ZERO news access, and > >> NO access to my last few > >> years of work threaded. > >> > >> I don't know if it's totally gone, > >> or I just can't see it right now. It MIGHT be able to build a new list from the files in a new directory IF the old list (which doesn't work anymore) is removed or re-named. The point is to minimise confusion by separating old files from new ones. And start fresh with a new default directory. > >Again, see if you can load it into a text editor. If it looks like text, > >the chances are that the files are OK. > > It's text mixed with gibberish. > I THOUGHT that was database > compression. Now I don't know. > I might just be gibberish. Worry about that later -- after you get up and running again with current news. > >> And I'm looking for a new news reader, > >> that works as well as Agent [I *LOVE* > >> Agent, except when it can't find my data] > >> and stores the news is OPEN file format. > > >Tin is regarded by many as the best newsreader. But I don't know if > >there is a Windows version. I just checked. There IS a Windows version. You have to install Cygwin first, maybe. I don't know the details. You would have to investigate. >Otherwise you would need to run it on Linux > >or some flavor of Unix. It might be ported to OS-X by now. I haven't > >checked. > > I have linux installed, but it doesn't see > my modem and my mouse doesn't work > right and I can see it will take me several > months I don't have now to learn to use it. You might have a winmodem. ;( They don't work with Linux. Either get a real modem, external is best, or recently there ARE attempts to make free software to run winmodems on Linux. But you don't have time to fuck around with that. Even if it works it will be a pain, and you will spend much too much time on it. The mouse is an Xwindow problem. Somehow Xwindow doen't have the right info. I've never heard of a mouse that can't be configured. At the worst case you might need to get a new mouse for 20 bucks that is PS2 or MS compatible. But again I haven't seen a mouse that won't work on Lin. > >> I WANT IT TO THREAD THE ARTICLES! > >> An unthreaded news reader has NO clue! > > >Tin will thread or un-thread the articles. I believe the articles are > >stored in the order they are received. Then the software scans the > >headers and makes an index. Using the index information only it can > >present the articles to the user in whatever arrangement he requires. > > Good. I think Homer uses Tin, but > his articles never come up threaded. ???? > >> I have most of the articles as Eudora files, > >> so I haven't lost the primary data, but they > >> are NOT threaded or dated and are NOT in > >> easy-to-use news format or *AS POSTED* > >> and of course they don't have message IDs > >> so you can't search for them very precisely. > > >These would be the original articles, before they were posted? > > Yes. I compose in eudora because one false > "escape" wipes your article in Agent. Then I > cut and paste from Eudora to Agent [Free Agent > before that] to post to usenet. I can see why you love Agent!!!!! > >> So as it stands now I do *NOT* have > >> a copy of the UCP PUBLIC RECORD. > > >As posted where, to ACT? > > Mostly ACT, mostly starting in 1999, > although I did post some as early as > 1995, but was off the net for several > years due to economic collapse and > inability to maintain a computer system. > > I posted a lot to ARS, but that is mostly > duplicates of the ACT stuff. I've posted > to a few other newsgroups, but 95+% of > my UCP work has been posted to ACT. I was > posting as anyonymous@electra.lightlink.com > for the first few years, until Homer blocked my > access because he does not like free speech. > That actually worked out for the best because > my articles did not thread through the remailer. > > >> I have a CD with about 500 megs of backed-up > >> Free Agent and Agent files, which might be good > >> data that I can't read for some reason because > >> my Agent has deconfigured itself, OR large parts > >> of them might be scrambled and completely useless > >> because the data base compression was done by > >> my computer with bad memory for the last year. > > > >What kind of compression? Did you zip them? Or something else? > > No. Just the Free Agent and Agent database > files, which are compressed automatically. > > >> If Alex, Alex or anyone else wants a CD with my > >> latest news backups on it, I'd be happy to send > >> them a copy. I also have earlier backup CD's > >> . . . but of course they lack my recent work, > >> and I don't know if they are readable either. > >> I believed them all to be, until I needed them! > > >My guess is that if your computer difficulties are recent, that the CDs > >are OK. > > This computer has been a nightmare since I built > it about 4 or 5 years ago. It had bad memory since > I had a new motherboard installed about a year ago. > > >> Maybe some of the computer or news experts > >> can descramble and decompress it . . . or just > >> tell us that it really is totally useless garbage. > > > >Item 1) > >One of my clients had some Eudora and Outlook mail that needed sending, > >but the machine connected to the network was down. I took the files and > >put them on a Linux box. They loaded perfectly into Pine, despite the > >top "From " line being missing. > > > >Item 2) > >Pine stores mail and news on the same spool. Ergo the file formats are > >compatible. > > That's wonderful! > > Now tell me Pine reads Agent database files! :-) Evidently Agent files are not open standard format. ;( > >So, I would guess that unless Agent does something really weird to the > >files that they should be readable by another news or mail reader. > > It compresses them in its own file format. > > Agent and Free Agent apparently use different file formats, > because if you upgrade to Agent you CAN'T go back again. Maybe someone has written a conversion program. But you will be better off in the long run to get them in open format. > >> Looking back on my experience, I HATE compressed > >> databases. Somehow they always seem to "SAVE > >> SPACE" by ERASING or DELETING ALL MY DATA! > > > >I won't even guess on this one. If they were zipped, there are utilities > >to repair mangled zip files. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. > > > >> And I HATE file formats that require specialized > >> proprietary programs to read them. USELESS! > > > >Is Agent one of these? > > Yes. > > >> That's where I am right now. > > > >In summary, ease your mind about one thing: your last 9 months of Usenet > >postings are recoverable from my server without much difficulty. Tin > >should be able to thread them for you. > > > >> KP > > abner > >abner@sdf.lonestar.org > > Excellent! > > Homer maintains a lot of stuff at clearing.org, > and has said he has a total log of ACT from > the beginning, but I have no idea how to get it. > My 56K modem connects at 26 to 28K, and > ACT is probably gigabytes of data by now. > > Thanks for writing! > > > KP That's all for now. Belly empty. Kitchen run. abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-856-1021861828-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon May 20 02:29:53 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.69]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4K2TrN20585 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 02:29:53 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-856-1021861828-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 May 2002 02:30:29 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 20 May 2002 02:30:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 74068 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020519162347.0147ab38@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 65.94.193.245 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > > No, it never went away, it was just ignored for a long time > because of incorrect assumptions by Michaelson-Morely. If the problem was with michelson and morley , noone would have made a big deal out of it. In fact, Lorenz showed how to work around it even before relativity theory. The trouble was that the theory of electricity was in direct contradiction with the newtonian mechanics. Einstein's idea was to assume that the Maxwell theory of electricity is right and mechanics is a bit off. The rest of the his theory logically falls out of that (and I can show you how, if you want). Existence of aether is immaterial to the argument. > > It's back and working better than ever. > > What is GONE are bent space, telepathic particles, > time going backwards, big bangs and other insanity. What the "bent space" actually means in down-to-earth terms (and here is a nice link to UCP , to keep this discussion on-topic) is that to diffeernce between HERE and THERE depends on the way you compare. For instance you need to carry something form there to here. In general the result depends on how you do that. That's all. Classic Physics blatantly ignores such subtlety, and thus, as far as I am concernd, is more insane than general relativity. As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, notthing more. For instance, General gravity can be reformulated without any reference to curved space-time and, vice versa, the good old Newtonian gravity can be described as a bent space theory (which was done by Elie Cartan in 1930's). Similarly, QM notices that what we know affects what we see. Or that division of the world in parts such as here and there, the observer and the observed, is largely arbitrary. If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might look like weird magic effects. Again I believe QM is way more sane than the old-school Newtonian approach. As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't feel qualified to discuss it. > >(for KP) > >As of Rado's theory, that KP quotes, it is hard to make any definite > >judgement based on what he writes on his web page, but theories of > >that *type* (that is theories of "aether")were very popular in 18th- > >19th century. > > Yes. Because they work so well! If they worked well there'd be no need to alter them, would be? Mind you, Michelson-Morley experiment was not the only trouble with the 19th century approach. It's just the most famous one. Also, right or wrong, curent aetherless theories work way better than the 19th century physics. According to the old-school theories transistors, lasers and nukes are simply impossible. Proff is in the pudding. > > Even Einstein [that fraud] admitted that > Relativity was an aether theory, when > he wasn't busy denying it. You can formulate relativity with aether or without it, according to your taste. Aether is not a *necesary* assumption. It doesn't affect the logic at all. > > Rado corrected a major error. > > >The problem with them is that when you try to make them > >fit all the known facts, the properties of aether turn out to be a > >very strange indeed. > > No. Extremely SIMPLE! As I said, I have only read Rado's PR site. he doesn't give any "meat" there. Can you recap in a paragraph or so, what are these simple properties of aether? Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-857-1021871907-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon May 20 05:17:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4K5HpG08843 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 05:17:51 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-857-1021871907-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 May 2002 05:18:27 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 20 May 2002 05:18:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 21940 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 05:18:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 May 2002 05:18:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 May 2002 05:18:25 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4K5HhU08830; Mon, 20 May 2002 05:17:43 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 05:17:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 On Mon, 20 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 > --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > > > > > No, it never went away, it was just ignored for a long time > > because of incorrect assumptions by Michaelson-Morely. > > If the problem was with michelson and morley , noone would have made > a big deal out of it. In fact, Lorenz showed how to work around it > even before relativity theory. The trouble was that the theory of > electricity was in direct contradiction with the newtonian mechanics. > Einstein's idea was to assume that the Maxwell theory of electricity > is right and mechanics is a bit off. The rest of the his theory > logically falls out of that (and I can show you how, if you want). > Existence of aether is immaterial to the argument. > > > > > It's back and working better than ever. > > > > What is GONE are bent space, telepathic particles, > > time going backwards, big bangs and other insanity. > > What the "bent space" actually means in down-to-earth terms (and here > is a nice link to UCP , to keep this discussion on-topic) is that to > diffeernce between HERE and THERE depends on the way you compare. For > instance you need to carry something form there to here. In general > the result depends on how you do that. That's all. Classic Physics > blatantly ignores such subtlety, and thus, as far as I am concernd, > is more insane than general relativity. > > As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, Yes. All these maps are metaphors. Unless mathematics is here before God, mathematics is a metaphor too. The fact that much of the physical world "follows" mathematical models, sometimes nearly persuades me that mathematics is "discovered" rather than invented. (One can discover a giraffe. Only God can invent one). My present view is that models, mathematical models, are maps, metaphors which have beauty or utility insofar as they are useful: in explaining, understanding, and predicting phenomena. And in doing such with economy of means. These are the terms of argument that I find useful, not rightness or wrongness. Newtonian physics is not "wrong"; it is useful within the domain in which it maps to the territory. There happens to be a territory to which it will not map. The only insanity I see is to confuse the map with the territory. All maps are not territory; no map is territory > notthing more. For instance, General gravity can be reformulated > without any reference to curved space-time and, vice versa, the good > old Newtonian gravity can be described as a bent space theory (which > was done by Elie Cartan in 1930's). > > Similarly, QM notices that what we know affects what we see. Or that > division of the world in parts such as here and there, the observer > and the observed, is largely arbitrary. > > If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable > entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might look > like weird magic effects. Well said! This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a modification of God. >Again I believe QM is way more sane than > the old-school Newtonian approach. QM is neither sane nor insane. The same cannot be said of scientists. But isn't there realms which QM doesn't reach? Both the large and the small? What is quantum foam? Brian Greene has written on this. The first third of his book is a resume on the history of physics. The last of it an account of string theories. There's lots of info on the web, and the book is marvellous. > As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't > feel qualified to discuss it. Me neither -- as a scientist. As a philosopher, I will echo Spinoza. A modification of God, fundamentally no more impressive, no more miraculous than the explosion of an acorn into a mighty Oak. There is a place where Big Bangs are going off as far as the eye can see, like fireflies on a summer night. > > >(for KP) > > >As of Rado's theory, that KP quotes, it is hard to make any > definite > > >judgement based on what he writes on his web page, but theories of > > >that *type* (that is theories of "aether")were very popular in > 18th- > > >19th century. > > > > Yes. Because they work so well! > > If they worked well there'd be no need to alter them, would be? Mind > you, Michelson-Morley experiment was not the only trouble with the > 19th century approach. It's just the most famous one. > > Also, right or wrong, curent aetherless theories work way better than > the 19th century physics. According to the old-school theories > transistors, lasers and nukes are simply impossible. Proff is in the > pudding. > > > > > Even Einstein [that fraud] admitted that > > Relativity was an aether theory, when > > he wasn't busy denying it. > > You can formulate relativity with aether or without it, according to > your taste. Aether is not a *necesary* assumption. It doesn't affect > the logic at all. > > > > > Rado corrected a major error. > > > > >The problem with them is that when you try to make them > > >fit all the known facts, the properties of aether turn out to be a > > >very strange indeed. > > > > No. Extremely SIMPLE! > > As I said, I have only read Rado's PR site. he doesn't give > any "meat" there. Can you recap in a paragraph or so, what are these > simple properties of aether? > > Best, > Oleg I'll pass on Rado for the time being. The diagram is fascinating. It reminds me of the engine of the Crab Nebula. I'll post the URL one of these days. Best, abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-858-1021874219-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon May 20 05:56:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4K5uNG01869 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 05:56:23 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-858-1021874219-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 May 2002 05:56:59 -0000 X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 20 May 2002 05:56:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 86315 invoked from network); 20 May 2002 05:56:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 May 2002 05:56:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO otaku.freeshell.org) (207.202.214.131) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 May 2002 05:56:58 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) id g4K5uGT01810; Mon, 20 May 2002 05:56:16 GMT X-X-Sender: abner@otaku.freeshell.org To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 05:56:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 On Sun, 19 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:13:57 -0000 > From: punkfloyd.rm > --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > Hm. I don't want to dwell too much on this subject, because IMHO, it > is off-topic for this group, but I'll interejcts a few comments here/ I would disagree on the off-topic. If U stands for Universal there can be no subject off-topic. To say it another way, if we are immersed in the mind of God permeating the body of God, what could be off-topic? > > Some *scientists* speak of what is beyond the reach of science, but > my > > impression is that they are in the minority -- although a very > creative > > minority. But QM seems on the verge of obsolescence, in favor of > > super-strings -- if only the mathematics were more tractable. > > Hm. Reading pop science literature might led one to believe that > super-strings somehow supercede quantum theory, but thsi is not > correct. Superstring theory (and most of its competitors) is a 100% > quantum theory. It is built on top of the basic quantum mechanics, > like high-school algebra is built on top of arithmetics. What is > being discarded is the notion that everything is built out of > infinitely small pointlike particles. This notion has been giving > scientists headaches for more than 100 years by now, it's good to see > it go. To a certain extent I agree. These "pointlike particles" behave very strangely; have weird connections at a distance; pop into and out of existence. The superstring models I have seen are complex geometric "caves" with a "stick" capable of various degrees of freedom moving, rotating within this cave such that its ends just fit into and lock in various slots according to the state of the particle. There is also the concept of many more dimensions of space than QM is used to. > > computers might help here. As it is, because the equations are so > highly > > recursive, all the computing power on Earth now, if harnessed to the > > task, would take over a hundred years to solve the first hard > equation. > > I am not sure which equation are you talking about. My understanding > of the situation is that the main problem is that the superstring > theory is not yet at the point where it can make definite > predictions. And if a thory does not make predictions, it is > impossible to verify. If memory serves, SOME predictions have indeed been verified. These verifications have greatly encouraged physicists to jump on the bandwagon. But the core equations cannot be computed right now and this factor is immensely frustrating. Check out Brian Greene's book. Although it is popular and readable, he is one of the big guns of string theory -- and a gifted writer. > > The approximations do not suffice for bringing the theory to > maturity. I > > do not understand the details. What I do understand is elegant and > > beautiful, in contrast to QM, which although useful is ugly. > > I believe you are thinking of something that is called "Standard > Model of Particle Physics", not QM as such. Standard Model is just a > collection of known facts about particles, with little rhyme or > reason to it. It really is ugly. Somewhat unfortuantely, it is also > astonishingly efficient and workable, which makes any attempts to > change it a very hard endeavour indeed. > > In contrast, Quantum mechanics is a very simple and elegant theory, > however very counterintuitive. (Should not be a surprise, for all our > experience concerns thins far larger than atoms and molecules) Well, I think I will defer further comment for the moment. I gave away my copy of Greene's book, so cannot cite details of the deficiencies of each theory, beyond the obvious one that either theory alone cannot explain and predict all measurable phenomena. abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-860-1021968330-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 08:04:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4L84sZ22714 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 08:04:55 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-860-1021968330-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 08:05:30 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 08:05:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 5039 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 08:05:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 08:05:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 08:05:29 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.160]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA07398 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 03:05:25 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020521002440.00b7b660@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020519161341.014807a8@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 00:24:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Abner writes: At 01:01 AM 5/20/2002 +0000, you wrote: >On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 16:13:41 -0700 > >[KP]: >> >> I tried out teranews.com, >> >> which accepted my debit card >> >> for a no payment, but was useless >> >> because it only had a fraction of >> >> the articles in ACT and ARS that >> >> Homer's server did. Forget that! >> > >> >Do you mean a fraction of the *articles* or a fraction of the >> >*newsgroups*? >> >> A fraction of the articles. I took my headers >> list from homer's server and tried to get the >> bodies on teranews. MOST of the articles, >> new or old, were unavailable on ternanews. >> >> >My news server has over 24,000 articles posted to ACT dating back 9 >> >months. >> >> Cool. >> >> Homer has ACT logged forever, but I >> don't know how to get it from his server. > >Send him fifty bucks for a "Web-server shell account" ? Fifty Bucks! That's more than I've spent on food in the last three months! >I gather that would give you unrestricted access to his news feed. >I don't know how he works his archives. . . Homer is a dead issue. >> >> When I tried to switch back I >> >> lost *ALL* of my newsgroups >> >> and stored articles. I have a >> >> backup that's only about 10 >> >> days old, and there is a huge >> >> amount of data in it, but for >> >> some reason my Agent is not >> >> reading it properly. Either it's >> >> scrambled or something else >> >> is wrong, so right now I don't >> >> even have Homer's free ACT >> >> and ARS feed. *BUMMER!* >> >> >Is the backup compressed or not? You might try looking at it with a text >> >editor, like notepad or something and see what you can discover. >> >> It's compressed in Agents database format. >> If you look at it with notepad, you see some >> text mixed with a lot of gibberish, which I >> assumed is the database compresssion. >> >> I have been unable to open it with Agent >> recently, and my computer is such a total >> state of collapse I'm on apathy on it. >> >> >Do you not have Homer's feed because Homer cut you off, or because Agent >> >is not reconfigured properly? >> >> Homer hasn't cut me off from his free news service >> of ACT and ARS, but I can't get them because >> agent won't let me type in a newsgroup, you HAVE >> to download the list of groups, which it won't do >> because I don't have server access for that. > >Fifty bucks ;( Way out of my ballpark right now. >Yeh, that's a bummer. News readers, ALL of them that I ahve seen ALL >want to do that. They really index the articles by an arbitrary number, >and that number is, of course, different for each news service. Fucked me up on the learning curve! >Lynx avoids that problem somehow. I think it just asks for the last 30 >articles. If you want to read further back it just computes and asks >for the 30 before that. But lynx isn't a news reader, really. > >> >I suppose you have tried rebooting several times? Sometimes Windows >> >doesn't get it until the third reboot. Also consider re-installing >> >Agent. ;( >> >> I did reinstall agent. That appears to have wiped out the >> articles and newsgroups I still had logged on my hard drive. > >Well, if you want to know, you could browse the Agent directory (where >it stores it's files) and see if they are still there. >That's problemo numero uno. If they ARE there, say thanks to whatever >deity you may believe in (or not) and move them all to a new directory. There's *LOTS* of stuff there . . . I just can't read it and I don't know if its garbage or not. >Then start fresh and see if you can get a new list from Homer's free ACT >news server. That would be my strategy. Yes. I'm looking for a reliable news server to start with. >It sounds like Agent is easily confused and due to the above, that is >understandable. I would guess that it is trying to make requests to one >news server based on lists from another news server, and that just >doesn't work. OH! This could be vital info! Maybe teranews.com is OK? It appeared to me that MOST of the articles on homer's server were NOT at teranews. DID I FUCK UP THERE? >> >> As it stands today, I have >> >> ZERO news access, and >> >> NO access to my last few >> >> years of work threaded. >> >> >> >> I don't know if it's totally gone, >> >> or I just can't see it right now. > >It MIGHT be able to build a new list from the files in a new directory >IF the old list (which doesn't work anymore) is removed or re-named. >The point is to minimise confusion by separating old files from new >ones. And start fresh with a new default directory. Yes. I understand that now. I was a total idiot and didn't back up because I thought I had a recent backup. >> >Again, see if you can load it into a text editor. If it looks like text, >> >the chances are that the files are OK. >> >> It's text mixed with gibberish. >> I THOUGHT that was database >> compression. Now I don't know. >> I might just be gibberish. > >Worry about that later -- after you get up and running again with >current news. Yes! That is the correct order of importances. >> >> And I'm looking for a new news reader, >> >> that works as well as Agent [I *LOVE* >> >> Agent, except when it can't find my data] >> >> and stores the news is OPEN file format. >> >> >Tin is regarded by many as the best newsreader. But I don't know if >> >there is a Windows version. > >I just checked. There IS a Windows version. You have to install Cygwin >first, maybe. I don't know the details. You would have to investigate. > >>Otherwise you would need to run it on Linux >> >or some flavor of Unix. It might be ported to OS-X by now. I haven't >> >checked. >> >> I have linux installed, but it doesn't see >> my modem and my mouse doesn't work >> right and I can see it will take me several >> months I don't have now to learn to use it. > >You might have a winmodem. ;( >They don't work with Linux. >Either get a real modem, external is best, or recently there ARE >attempts to make free software to run winmodems on Linux. >But you don't have time to fuck around with that. Even if it works it >will be a pain, and you will spend much too much time on it. Already! >The mouse is an Xwindow problem. Somehow Xwindow doen't have the right >info. I've never heard of a mouse that can't be configured. At the worst >case you might need to get a new mouse for 20 bucks that is PS2 or MS >compatible. But again I haven't seen a mouse that won't work on Lin. I don't even know what Xwindow is. My Logitech trackball is not listed in my Mandrake Linux install. The mouse part works ok now, but no scroll wheel. >> >> I WANT IT TO THREAD THE ARTICLES! >> >> An unthreaded news reader has NO clue! >> >> >Tin will thread or un-thread the articles. I believe the articles are >> >stored in the order they are received. Then the software scans the >> >headers and makes an index. Using the index information only it can >> >present the articles to the user in whatever arrangement he requires. >> >> Good. I think Homer uses Tin, but >> his articles never come up threaded. > >???? I assumed he would thread if the software let him. Silly assumption. >> >> I have most of the articles as Eudora files, >> >> so I haven't lost the primary data, but they >> >> are NOT threaded or dated and are NOT in >> >> easy-to-use news format or *AS POSTED* >> >> and of course they don't have message IDs >> >> so you can't search for them very precisely. >> >> >These would be the original articles, before they were posted? >> >> Yes. I compose in eudora because one false >> "escape" wipes your article in Agent. Then I >> cut and paste from Eudora to Agent [Free Agent >> before that] to post to usenet. > >I can see why you love Agent!!!!! It's WONDERFUL for posting, threading, finding articles, and lots of other stuff. I ONLY hate it when it loses all my data! >> >> So as it stands now I do *NOT* have >> >> a copy of the UCP PUBLIC RECORD. >> >> >As posted where, to ACT? >> >> Mostly ACT, mostly starting in 1999, >> although I did post some as early as >> 1995, but was off the net for several >> years due to economic collapse and >> inability to maintain a computer system. >> >> I posted a lot to ARS, but that is mostly >> duplicates of the ACT stuff. I've posted >> to a few other newsgroups, but 95+% of >> my UCP work has been posted to ACT. I was >> posting as anyonymous@electra.lightlink.com >> for the first few years, until Homer blocked my >> access because he does not like free speech. >> That actually worked out for the best because >> my articles did not thread through the remailer. >> >> >> I have a CD with about 500 megs of backed-up >> >> Free Agent and Agent files, which might be good >> >> data that I can't read for some reason because >> >> my Agent has deconfigured itself, OR large parts >> >> of them might be scrambled and completely useless >> >> because the data base compression was done by >> >> my computer with bad memory for the last year. >> > >> >What kind of compression? Did you zip them? Or something else? >> >> No. Just the Free Agent and Agent database >> files, which are compressed automatically. >> >> >> If Alex, Alex or anyone else wants a CD with my >> >> latest news backups on it, I'd be happy to send >> >> them a copy. I also have earlier backup CD's >> >> . . . but of course they lack my recent work, >> >> and I don't know if they are readable either. >> >> I believed them all to be, until I needed them! >> >> >My guess is that if your computer difficulties are recent, that the CDs >> >are OK. >> >> This computer has been a nightmare since I built >> it about 4 or 5 years ago. It had bad memory since >> I had a new motherboard installed about a year ago. >> >> >> Maybe some of the computer or news experts >> >> can descramble and decompress it . . . or just >> >> tell us that it really is totally useless garbage. >> > >> >Item 1) >> >One of my clients had some Eudora and Outlook mail that needed sending, >> >but the machine connected to the network was down. I took the files and >> >put them on a Linux box. They loaded perfectly into Pine, despite the >> >top "From " line being missing. >> > >> >Item 2) >> >Pine stores mail and news on the same spool. Ergo the file formats are >> >compatible. >> >> That's wonderful! >> >> Now tell me Pine reads Agent database files! :-) > >Evidently Agent files are not open standard format. ;( > >> >So, I would guess that unless Agent does something really weird to the >> >files that they should be readable by another news or mail reader. >> >> It compresses them in its own file format. >> >> Agent and Free Agent apparently use different file formats, >> because if you upgrade to Agent you CAN'T go back again. > >Maybe someone has written a conversion program. But you will be better >off in the long run to get them in open format. Yes! NO MORE COMPRESSED FILES FOR ME! It's *INSANE* to worry about compression when I have 60 gigs on just one hard drive. >> >> Looking back on my experience, I HATE compressed >> >> databases. Somehow they always seem to "SAVE >> >> SPACE" by ERASING or DELETING ALL MY DATA! >> > >> >I won't even guess on this one. If they were zipped, there are utilities >> >to repair mangled zip files. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. >> > >> >> And I HATE file formats that require specialized >> >> proprietary programs to read them. USELESS! >> > >> >Is Agent one of these? >> >> Yes. >> >> >> That's where I am right now. >> > >> >In summary, ease your mind about one thing: your last 9 months of Usenet >> >postings are recoverable from my server without much difficulty. Tin >> >should be able to thread them for you. >> > >> >> KP >> > abner >> >abner@sdf.lonestar.org >> >> Excellent! >> >> Homer maintains a lot of stuff at clearing.org, >> and has said he has a total log of ACT from >> the beginning, but I have no idea how to get it. >> My 56K modem connects at 26 to 28K, and >> ACT is probably gigabytes of data by now. >> >> Thanks for writing! >> >> >> KP > >That's all for now. Belly empty. Kitchen run. > > abner > >abner@sdf.lonestar.org Thanks for writing! I appreciate your perspective! KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-861-1021968333-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 08:05:05 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4L84xZ22721 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 08:04:59 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-861-1021968333-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 08:05:33 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 08:05:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 51701 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 08:05:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 08:05:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 08:05:32 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.160]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA07402 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 03:05:29 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020521010145.01a60e20@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020519162347.0147ab38@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 01:01:45 -0700 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 At 02:30 AM 5/20/2002 -0000, you wrote: >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > >> >> No, it never went away, it was just ignored for a long time >> because of incorrect assumptions by Michaelson-Morely. > >If the problem was with michelson and morley , noone would have made >a big deal out of it. In fact, Lorenz showed how to work around it >even before relativity theory. The trouble was that the theory of >electricity was in direct contradiction with the newtonian mechanics. >Einstein's idea was to assume that the Maxwell theory of electricity >is right and mechanics is a bit off. The rest of the his theory >logically falls out of that (and I can show you how, if you want). >Existence of aether is immaterial to the argument. Existence of aether is VITAL to explaining action-at-a-distance. Without a medium, there can be no waves. Even children can understand that! >> It's back and working better than ever. >> >> What is GONE are bent space, telepathic particles, >> time going backwards, big bangs and other insanity. > >What the "bent space" actually means in down-to-earth terms (and here >is a nice link to UCP , to keep this discussion on-topic) is that to >diffeernce between HERE and THERE depends on the way you compare. For >instance you need to carry something form there to here. In general >the result depends on how you do that. That's all. Classic Physics >blatantly ignores such subtlety, and thus, as far as I am concernd, >is more insane than general relativity. Classic Physics produced E=MC^2 Einstein just stole it and invented an insane explanation for it. >As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, >notthing more. For instance, General gravity can be reformulated >without any reference to curved space-time and, vice versa, the good >old Newtonian gravity can be described as a bent space theory (which >was done by Elie Cartan in 1930's). Rado explains gravity quite simply. CHECK IT OUT! >Similarly, QM notices that what we know affects what we see. Or that >division of the world in parts such as here and there, the observer >and the observed, is largely arbitrary. And invents insane explanations for it. >If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable >entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might look >like weird magic effects. Again I believe QM is way more sane than >the old-school Newtonian approach. But I'm not comparing QM to Newton. I'm comparing it to Rado's aether theory. >As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't >feel qualified to discuss it. OK. I'm not either. But if you are going to tell me the entire universe was compressed into zero space, . . . I'll tell you . . . GO INTO COMEDY! >> >(for KP) >> >As of Rado's theory, that KP quotes, it is hard to make any >definite >> >judgement based on what he writes on his web page, but theories of >> >that *type* (that is theories of "aether")were very popular in >18th- >> >19th century. >> Yes. Because they work so well! >If they worked well there'd be no need to alter them, would be? Mind >you, Michelson-Morley experiment was not the only trouble with the >19th century approach. It's just the most famous one. Yes. One little error can make a HUGE difference! Gravity *IS* the aether wind. The plane of Michaelson-Morley's experiment was 90 degrees wrong. >Also, right or wrong, curent aetherless theories work way better than >the 19th century physics. According to the old-school theories >transistors, lasers and nukes are simply impossible. Proff is in the >pudding. Please Read Rado! >> Even Einstein [that fraud] admitted that >> Relativity was an aether theory, when >> he wasn't busy denying it. > >You can formulate relativity with aether or without it, according to >your taste. Aether is not a *necesary* assumption. It doesn't affect >the logic at all. It may not affect the MATH, but it certainly affects the LOGIC. >> Rado corrected a major error. >> >> >The problem with them is that when you try to make them >> >fit all the known facts, the properties of aether turn out to be a >> >very strange indeed. >> >> No. Extremely SIMPLE! > >As I said, I have only read Rado's PR site. he doesn't give >any "meat" there. Can you recap in a paragraph or so, what are these >simple properties of aether? That moving diagram *IS* the "meat" . . . of the entire universe! It shows the flows of a particle, planet, solar system, or galaxy. His theory lays out EXACTLY WHY! >Best, >Oleg The basic explanation is . . . ========= IDEAL GAS ========= I wish you would buy Rado's book and read it. I truly believe you will be STUNNED when he lays it out for you. It's comparable to UCP in it's total simplicity and overwhelming completeness. It's also a superb history of physics. Even I could follow along with the arguments and math, though I couldn't recreate or defend them to you. You obviously have the sophistication to really appreciate him. Rado GUTS Einstein and the QM morons like I gut Helle Rum $cumbug . . . and he develops *ALL* their math from his totally simple model, without *ANY* of their bizarrely insane beliefs. ===================================== His contribution to physics is comparable to my contribution to N-Lightenment. I promise you will understand more from his book than ALL the other physics texts you have studied. ===================================== I stand on that statement. I kid you not! I studied physics at the University of Chicago in the 1960's. Rado is WAY SMARTER than ANY of my teachers were. READ AND SEE! Read it while he's still alive . . . and you can say you knew him! If you don't thank me, I'll apologize! KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-862-1021973271-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 09:27:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.102]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4L9RFF08691 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:27:15 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-862-1021973271-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 09:27:52 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 09:27:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 89812 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 09:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 09:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 09:27:51 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.160]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA18369 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:27:48 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020521022215.00b7b660@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:22:15 -0700 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 At 05:17 AM 5/20/2002 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 20 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > >> Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 02:30:27 -0000 > >> --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: >> >> > >> > No, it never went away, it was just ignored for a long time >> > because of incorrect assumptions by Michaelson-Morely. >> >> If the problem was with michelson and morley , noone would have made >> a big deal out of it. In fact, Lorenz showed how to work around it >> even before relativity theory. The trouble was that the theory of >> electricity was in direct contradiction with the newtonian mechanics. >> Einstein's idea was to assume that the Maxwell theory of electricity >> is right and mechanics is a bit off. The rest of the his theory >> logically falls out of that (and I can show you how, if you want). >> Existence of aether is immaterial to the argument. >> >> > >> > It's back and working better than ever. >> > >> > What is GONE are bent space, telepathic particles, >> > time going backwards, big bangs and other insanity. >> >> What the "bent space" actually means in down-to-earth terms (and here >> is a nice link to UCP , to keep this discussion on-topic) is that to >> diffeernce between HERE and THERE depends on the way you compare. For >> instance you need to carry something form there to here. In general >> the result depends on how you do that. That's all. Classic Physics >> blatantly ignores such subtlety, and thus, as far as I am concernd, >> is more insane than general relativity. >> >> As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, > >Yes. All these maps are metaphors. Unless mathematics is here before >God, mathematics is a metaphor too. The fact that much of the physical >world "follows" mathematical models, sometimes nearly persuades me that >mathematics is "discovered" rather than invented. (One can discover a >giraffe. Only God can invent one). Models are not math. Insane models can produce accurate math. >My present view is that models, mathematical models, are maps, metaphors >which have beauty or utility insofar as they are useful: in explaining, >understanding, and predicting phenomena. And in doing such with economy >of means. These are the terms of argument that I find useful, not >rightness or wrongness. Newtonian physics is not "wrong"; it is useful >within the domain in which it maps to the territory. There happens to be >a territory to which it will not map. Sure! Get a GOOD map! Read Rado! >The only insanity I see is to confuse the map with the territory. >All maps are not territory; no map is territory > >> notthing more. For instance, General gravity can be reformulated >> without any reference to curved space-time and, vice versa, the good >> old Newtonian gravity can be described as a bent space theory (which >> was done by Elie Cartan in 1930's). >> >> Similarly, QM notices that what we know affects what we see. Or that >> division of the world in parts such as here and there, the observer >> and the observed, is largely arbitrary. >> >> If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable >> entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might look >> like weird magic effects. > >Well said! > >This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a modification of >God. > >>Again I believe QM is way more sane than >> the old-school Newtonian approach. > >QM is neither sane nor insane. The same cannot be said of scientists. >But isn't there realms which QM doesn't reach? Both the large and the >small? What is quantum foam? > >Brian Greene has written on this. The first third of his book is a >resume on the history of physics. The last of it an account of string >theories. There's lots of info on the web, and the book is marvellous. Read Rado and tell me that. >> As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't >> feel qualified to discuss it. > >Me neither -- as a scientist. As a philosopher, I will echo Spinoza. A >modification of God, fundamentally no more impressive, no more >miraculous than the explosion of an acorn into a mighty Oak. > >There is a place where Big Bangs are going off as far as the eye can >see, like fireflies on a summer night. > >> > >(for KP) >> > >As of Rado's theory, that KP quotes, it is hard to make any >> definite >> > >judgement based on what he writes on his web page, but theories of >> > >that *type* (that is theories of "aether")were very popular in >> 18th- >> > >19th century. >> > >> > Yes. Because they work so well! >> >> If they worked well there'd be no need to alter them, would be? Mind >> you, Michelson-Morley experiment was not the only trouble with the >> 19th century approach. It's just the most famous one. >> >> Also, right or wrong, curent aetherless theories work way better than >> the 19th century physics. According to the old-school theories >> transistors, lasers and nukes are simply impossible. Proff is in the >> pudding. >> >> > >> > Even Einstein [that fraud] admitted that >> > Relativity was an aether theory, when >> > he wasn't busy denying it. >> >> You can formulate relativity with aether or without it, according to >> your taste. Aether is not a *necesary* assumption. It doesn't affect >> the logic at all. >> >> > >> > Rado corrected a major error. >> > >> > >The problem with them is that when you try to make them >> > >fit all the known facts, the properties of aether turn out to be a >> > >very strange indeed. >> > >> > No. Extremely SIMPLE! >> >> As I said, I have only read Rado's PR site. he doesn't give >> any "meat" there. Can you recap in a paragraph or so, what are these >> simple properties of aether? >> >> Best, >> Oleg > >I'll pass on Rado for the time being. The diagram is fascinating. You've just passed on the Grand Unified Theory. >It reminds me of the engine of the Crab Nebula. I'll post the URL one of >these days. It's the engine of the physical universe. KP >Best, > abner > >abner@sdf.lonestar.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-863-1021973274-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 09:27:17 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4L9RGF08703 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 09:27:16 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-863-1021973274-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 09:27:54 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 09:27:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 15521 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 09:27:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 09:27:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 09:27:53 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.160]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA18372 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 04:27:51 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020521022410.01a4b828@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:24:10 -0700 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 At 05:56 AM 5/20/2002 +0000, you wrote: >On Sun, 19 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:13:57 -0000 >> From: punkfloyd.rm > >> --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: >> >> Hm. I don't want to dwell too much on this subject, because IMHO, it >> is off-topic for this group, but I'll interejcts a few comments here/ > >I would disagree on the off-topic. If U stands for Universal there can >be no subject off-topic. > >To say it another way, if we are immersed in the mind of God permeating >the body of God, what could be off-topic? > >> > Some *scientists* speak of what is beyond the reach of science, but >> my >> > impression is that they are in the minority -- although a very >> creative >> > minority. But QM seems on the verge of obsolescence, in favor of >> > super-strings -- if only the mathematics were more tractable. >> >> Hm. Reading pop science literature might led one to believe that >> super-strings somehow supercede quantum theory, but thsi is not >> correct. Superstring theory (and most of its competitors) is a 100% >> quantum theory. It is built on top of the basic quantum mechanics, >> like high-school algebra is built on top of arithmetics. What is >> being discarded is the notion that everything is built out of >> infinitely small pointlike particles. This notion has been giving >> scientists headaches for more than 100 years by now, it's good to see >> it go. > >To a certain extent I agree. These "pointlike particles" behave very >strangely; have weird connections at a distance; pop into and out of >existence. The superstring models I have seen are complex geometric >"caves" with a "stick" capable of various degrees of freedom moving, >rotating within this cave such that its ends just fit into and lock in >various slots according to the state of the particle. There is also the >concept of many more dimensions of space than QM is used to. RONSENSE! . . . as it were! >> > computers might help here. As it is, because the equations are so >> highly >> > recursive, all the computing power on Earth now, if harnessed to the >> > task, would take over a hundred years to solve the first hard >> equation. >> >> I am not sure which equation are you talking about. My understanding >> of the situation is that the main problem is that the superstring >> theory is not yet at the point where it can make definite >> predictions. And if a thory does not make predictions, it is >> impossible to verify. > >If memory serves, SOME predictions have indeed been verified. These >verifications have greatly encouraged physicists to jump on the >bandwagon. But the core equations cannot be computed right now and this >factor is immensely frustrating. Check out Brian Greene's book. Although >it is popular and readable, he is one of the big guns of string theory >-- and a gifted writer. Read Rado and LAUGH at the morons! >> > The approximations do not suffice for bringing the theory to >> maturity. I >> > do not understand the details. What I do understand is elegant and >> > beautiful, in contrast to QM, which although useful is ugly. >> >> I believe you are thinking of something that is called "Standard >> Model of Particle Physics", not QM as such. Standard Model is just a >> collection of known facts about particles, with little rhyme or >> reason to it. It really is ugly. Somewhat unfortuantely, it is also >> astonishingly efficient and workable, which makes any attempts to >> change it a very hard endeavour indeed. >> >> In contrast, Quantum mechanics is a very simple and elegant theory, >> however very counterintuitive. (Should not be a surprise, for all our >> experience concerns thins far larger than atoms and molecules) > >Well, I think I will defer further comment for the moment. I gave away >my copy of Greene's book, so cannot cite details of the deficiencies of >each theory, beyond the obvious one that either theory alone cannot >explain and predict all measurable phenomena. READ RADO! KP > abner > >abner@sdf.lonestar.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :) > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-864-1021983922-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 12:24:46 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LCOjG25724 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:24:45 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-864-1021983922-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 12:25:23 -0000 X-Sender: justintonation@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 12:25:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 89667 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 12:25:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 12:25:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 12:25:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 12:25:07 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "justintonation" X-Originating-IP: 63.12.2.152 X-Yahoo-Profile: justintonation MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:25:07 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] UCP glossary help Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 Hello folks, I am putting together a glossary entries for some of the unfamiliar wors in KP's N-LIGHTENMENT NOW article. The other articles I will do in time. One of the words is "know" as in until you get up to know. KP? Do you want to offer a glossary entry for that one? I assume it means up to know on the "know to mystery chart" but I could be mistaken. Here are some other words and expressions that need to be defined for full of better compreension of the article. computation item valence dramatizing interiorize hysterical compulsive identity circuits engrams implants incidents process commands chains of earlier similar incidents dissassociation / denial indentification misemotion listing actions hallucination cognitions turns on flattened [eg no one has ever flattened UCP] charge not know [eg at the begining of the session the seeker will be in not know] freestyle at effect emotional tone level legs of the process protest havingness overran natter Handle [ eg the handle is to ...] figure figure repair lists justin [nb this is my name so no defintion is necessary ;-)] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-865-1021988672-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 13:43:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.91]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LDhtA23603 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 13:43:55 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-865-1021988672-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 13:44:32 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 13:44:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 42842 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 13:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 13:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 13:44:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 13:44:06 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020521002440.00b7b660@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:44:05 -0000 Subject: Re: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 If worst comes to worst, Google does keep archive of all usenet postings from 1981. Just do a search on your own name. It'd be probably a last ditch effort, retrieving news from the web format will be a bitch (unless somehow automated), but the data is there. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-866-1021997202-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 16:06:06 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.68]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LG65u25658 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:06:06 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-866-1021997202-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 16:06:43 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 16:06:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 19341 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 16:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 16:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 16:06:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 16:06:37 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:06:36 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > > > As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, > > Yes. All these maps are metaphors. Unless mathematics is here before > God, mathematics is a metaphor too. The fact that much of the physical > world "follows" mathematical models, sometimes nearly persuades me that > mathematics is "discovered" rather than invented. (One can discover a > giraffe. Only God can invent one). I don't think it's all that surprising, given we tend to alter our models until they fit what we see. What is surprising is that, unlike many of our other theories, mathematics is very self-consistent. > > My present view is that models, mathematical models, are maps, metaphors > which have beauty or utility insofar as they are useful: in explaining, > understanding, and predicting phenomena. And in doing such with economy > of means. These are the terms of argument that I find useful, not > rightness or wrongness. Newtonian physics is not "wrong"; it is useful > within the domain in which it maps to the territory. There happens to be > a territory to which it will not map. Exactomundo :) There's another point. A physical theory usually employes one (or more) intuitive models, that help to figure out what is going on without actually solving the equations. Bent space, smeared particle, aether are all such models. These can be very helpful as a way to quickly evaluate the situation and as a guide in further research. Oftentimes, however, you can have drastically different models that are 100% equivalent mathematically. Quantum mechanics, for example, has at least a dozen interpretations. > > The only insanity I see is to confuse the map with the territory. > All maps are not territory; no map is territory Here'll be extravagant and disagree. (This doesn't have a lot to do with the rest of discussion, tho) What is map made of? What is the difference between a map and anything else, say, a rubber duck? If we treat something as a map of something else, it becomes a map. If we treat a rubber duck as a map of London, it will become a (crude) map of London, as far as you are concerned. The difference is in your attitude, not in some inherent properties of maps and territories. > > If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable > > entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might look > > like weird magic effects. > > Well said! > > This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a modification of > God. I am not sure what you are getting at here. > >Again I believe QM is way more sane than > > the old-school Newtonian approach. > > QM is neither sane nor insane. The same cannot be said of scientists. And that's why they have invented all kinds of quality-control procedures (such as verification with experiments). The system is not perfect but it works most of the time. > But isn't there realms which QM doesn't reach? Both the large and the > small? What is quantum foam? Unfortunately this is a question with no single answer. Because "quantum" really can stand for 3 things: General Quantum mechanics, Quantum field theory and the Standard Model of Particle Physics. General QM is an extremely general framework and it can accomodate zillions of different applications, from sub-atomic particles, to superstrings, to lasers, to quantum computers, to neutron stars. QM is generally thought to be universally applicable. So far it passes all tests wth flying colors. Note: People disagree on what QM "actually means" , but that doesn't affect the actual math. There's also Quantum Field Theory(QFT) - an application of Quantum Mechanics to fields (that is things that fill entire space). Here situation is paradoxical: QFT is *known* to be non-consistent, yet it gives amazingly precise answers (like one part in quadrillionths). String theory, in part, is an attempt to clean up the inconsistencies. QFT is known not to be universally applicable, but the situations where it breaks down are beyond our reach at the moment. Standard Model is the collection of known facts about sub-atomic particles, such as quarks and electrons. It includes Electroweak theory and Quantum Chromodynamics, both are types of QFT. Standard model is ugly and gross, yet it is in a very good agreement with the experiment (with a couple of notable glitches!). It's an evolving thing and people hope to make it less ugly. By all indications Standard Model is not the final word. Quantum foam. There are 2 versions of quantum foam. Both are parts of the effort to apply quantum mechanics to gravity. Since noone knows how to work out a full quantum gravity theory, these are very speculative entities indeed. The original idea (originating in late 19th century, by the way) is that at a very small scale the space is not at all like the nice Euclidean space we all know and love. The microscopic structure might turn out to be very complex indeed, perhaps resembling a higher- dimensional version of a foam. The other version of quantum foam is called "spin foams" or Topological Quantum Field Theory (TQFT). It's a very strange beast. Basically it represents space as a sort of a network. Or one can say that every piece of space functions like a quantum computer. When you allow the computer to change with time, you get a sort of a foam. This is one of the most developed alternatives to the string theory, but it too has many hurdles to overcome. > > Brian Greene has written on this. The first third of his book is a > resume on the history of physics. The last of it an account of string > theories. There's lots of info on the web, and the book is marvellous. Yes, I know his works. You might also want to read very nice book by Lee Smolin called "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity". It gives nice ovberview of what has been done, not only in string theory but in other approaches as well. > > > As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't > > feel qualified to discuss it. > > Me neither -- as a scientist. As a philosopher, I will echo Spinoza. A > modification of God, fundamentally no more impressive, no more > miraculous than the explosion of an acorn into a mighty Oak. Just a couple of weeks ago a new theory (based on Strings) came out that seemingly provides a viable alternative to Big Bang cosmology. Not enough expertise to evaluate it but, here it is: http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/02/0506/0506-cyclicuniverse.htm http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/ Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-867-1021998716-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 16:31:19 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.77]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LGVIu22401 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 16:31:18 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-867-1021998716-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 16:31:56 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 16:31:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 37659 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 16:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 16:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 16:31:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 16:31:54 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:31:50 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > On Sun, 19 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 23:13:57 -0000 > > From: punkfloyd.rm > > > --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > > > Hm. I don't want to dwell too much on this subject, because IMHO, it > > is off-topic for this group, but I'll interejcts a few comments here/ > > I would disagree on the off-topic. If U stands for Universal there can > be no subject off-topic. Yeah, but it'll help if topic has a general appeal. Otherwise email works just as well :) Anyhoo.. > > To say it another way, if we are immersed in the mind of God permeating > the body of God, what could be off-topic? Whatever we decide is off-topic is off-topic and vice versa. If ppl think it's interesting to discuss science in here, I am all for it, because I really like talking about it. > > To a certain extent I agree. These "pointlike particles" behave very > strangely; have weird connections at a distance; pop into and out of > existence. yes, But That's not an artefact of their "pointlikeness". Strings would do the same thing. It's a consequence of the fact that you cannot know position and velocity of something at the same time. Or, more generally, what you know affects what you see. For instance, you can say that particles do not have weird connections at the distance, but what you see does. By looking at one particle you determine what you are going to see when you look at the other. As of the particles that pop in an out of existence, you cannot ever see those. This is just a nice way to keep track of what happens rather than a real phenomena. A bit like counting on an abacus. > The superstring models I have seen are complex geometric > "caves" with a "stick" capable of various degrees of freedom moving, > rotating within this cave such that its ends just fit into and lock in > various slots according to the state of the particle. There is also the > concept of many more dimensions of space than QM is used to. Again, let's separate QM from Standard Model. QM works in any dimensions (in fact, it is works in an infinite-dimensional space to begin with). Standard Model works in our familiar 3+1D space-time. By the way, as I noted in my other posts, there are nice alternatives to string theories that do not require extra dimensions. > > If memory serves, SOME predictions have indeed been verified. These > verifications have greatly encouraged physicists to jump on the > bandwagon. But the core equations cannot be computed right now and this > factor is immensely frustrating. Check out Brian Greene's book. Although > it is popular and readable, he is one of the big guns of string theory > -- and a gifted writer. If that's "Elegant Universe" you are talking about, I have read it. What I think has been verified is some (but not all) of the *starting* assumptions (for instance that string theory is indeed compatible with gravitation theory). AFAIK all possible predictions of string theory are far out reach of current technology. However, this is a rapidly developing field, and who knows what happens next. > > Well, I think I will defer further comment for the moment. I gave away > my copy of Greene's book, so cannot cite details of the deficiencies of > each theory, beyond the obvious one that either theory alone cannot > explain and predict all measurable phenomena. Ok :) Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-868-1022001844-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 17:23:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.107]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LHNRE11973 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:23:27 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-868-1022001844-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 17:24:05 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 17:24:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 11206 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 17:24:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 17:24:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 17:24:03 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.191]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00491 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:23:59 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020521102023.01a66d08@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:20:23 -0700 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 At 04:06 PM 5/21/2002 -0000, you wrote: >--- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > >> > >> > As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, >> >> Yes. All these maps are metaphors. Unless mathematics is here before >> God, mathematics is a metaphor too. The fact that much of the >physical >> world "follows" mathematical models, sometimes nearly persuades me >that >> mathematics is "discovered" rather than invented. (One can discover >a >> giraffe. Only God can invent one). > >I don't think it's all that surprising, given we tend to alter our >models until they fit what we see. What is surprising is that, unlike >many of our other theories, mathematics is very self-consistent. Yes. >> My present view is that models, mathematical models, are maps, >metaphors >> which have beauty or utility insofar as they are useful: in >explaining, >> understanding, and predicting phenomena. And in doing such with >economy >> of means. These are the terms of argument that I find useful, not >> rightness or wrongness. Newtonian physics is not "wrong"; it is >useful >> within the domain in which it maps to the territory. There happens >to be >> a territory to which it will not map. > >Exactomundo :) There's another point. A physical theory usually >employes one (or more) intuitive models, that help to figure out what >is going on without actually solving the equations. Bent space, >smeared particle, aether are all such models. These can be very >helpful as a way to quickly evaluate the situation and as a guide in >further research. Yes. A model should be understandable, or it does NOT create understanding. >Oftentimes, however, you can have drastically different models that >are 100% equivalent mathematically. Quantum mechanics, for example, >has at least a dozen interpretations. All of which appear to be INSANE MYSTERY. You can plot physics theories on the tone scale. >> The only insanity I see is to confuse the map with the territory. >> All maps are not territory; no map is territory > >Here'll be extravagant and disagree. (This doesn't have a lot to do >with the rest of discussion, tho) >What is map made of? What is the difference between a map and >anything else, say, a rubber duck? > >If we treat something as a map of something else, it becomes a map. >If we treat a rubber duck as a map of London, it will become a >(crude) map of London, as far as you are concerned. The difference is >in your attitude, not in some inherent properties of maps and >territories. Yes. The map can be examined as a thing-in-itself, in which case it is NOT actually a SYMBOL. >> > If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable >> > entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might >look >> > like weird magic effects. >> >> Well said! >> >> This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a >modification of >> God. > >I am not sure what you are getting at here. > >> >Again I believe QM is way more sane than >> > the old-school Newtonian approach. >> >> QM is neither sane nor insane. The same cannot be said of >scientists. > >And that's why they have invented all kinds of quality-control >procedures (such as verification with experiments). The system is not >perfect but it works most of the time. > >> But isn't there realms which QM doesn't reach? Both the large and >the >> small? What is quantum foam? > >Unfortunately this is a question with no single answer. >Because "quantum" really can stand for 3 things: General Quantum >mechanics, Quantum field theory and the Standard Model of Particle >Physics. > > >General QM is an extremely general framework and it can accomodate >zillions of different applications, from sub-atomic particles, to >superstrings, to lasers, to quantum computers, to neutron stars. QM >is generally thought to be universally applicable. So far it passes >all tests wth flying colors. Note: People disagree on what >QM "actually means" , but that doesn't affect the actual math. The MATH is COMPLETELY severable from the insane complex *MYSTERY* theories. The sane model predicts the same math. >There's also Quantum Field Theory(QFT) - an application of Quantum >Mechanics to fields (that is things that fill entire space). Here >situation is paradoxical: QFT is *known* to be non-consistent, yet it >gives amazingly precise answers (like one part in quadrillionths). >String theory, in part, is an attempt to clean up the >inconsistencies. QFT is known not to be universally applicable, but >the situations where it breaks down are beyond our reach at the >moment. Rado derives plank's constant from his theory, as well as MANY other things, and *SOLVES* MANY of the inconsistencies of insane theory. >Standard Model is the collection of known facts about sub-atomic >particles, such as quarks and electrons. It includes Electroweak >theory and Quantum Chromodynamics, both are types of QFT. Standard >model is ugly and gross, yet it is in a very good agreement with the >experiment (with a couple of notable glitches!). It's an evolving >thing and people hope to make it less ugly. By all indications >Standard Model is not the final word. > >Quantum foam. >There are 2 versions of quantum foam. Both are parts of the effort to >apply quantum mechanics to gravity. Since noone knows how to work out >a full quantum gravity theory, these are very speculative entities >indeed. RADO *EASILY* EXPLAINS GRAVITY! >The original idea (originating in late 19th century, by the way) is >that at a very small scale the space is not at all like the nice >Euclidean space we all know and love. The microscopic structure might >turn out to be very complex indeed, perhaps resembling a higher- >dimensional version of a foam. At the size level of the individual aether particles, their statistically averaged "wave" character does not apply. >The other version of quantum foam is called "spin foams" or >Topological Quantum Field Theory (TQFT). It's a very strange beast. >Basically it represents space as a sort of a network. Or one can say >that every piece of space functions like a quantum computer. When you >allow the computer to change with time, you get a sort of a foam. >This is one of the most developed alternatives to the string theory, >but it too has many hurdles to overcome. Such as being totally non-comprehensible mystery ronsense. >> Brian Greene has written on this. The first third of his book is a >> resume on the history of physics. The last of it an account of >string >> theories. There's lots of info on the web, and the book is >marvellous. > >Yes, I know his works. You might also want to read very nice book by >Lee Smolin called "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity". It gives nice >ovberview of what has been done, not only in string theory but in >other approaches as well. READ RADO! >> > As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't >> > feel qualified to discuss it. >> >> Me neither -- as a scientist. As a philosopher, I will echo >Spinoza. A >> modification of God, fundamentally no more impressive, no more >> miraculous than the explosion of an acorn into a mighty Oak. > >Just a couple of weeks ago a new theory (based on Strings) came out >that seemingly provides a viable alternative to Big Bang cosmology. >Not enough expertise to evaluate it but, here it is: Rado slaughters big bang theory and predicts red shift as a consequence of "tired light", which others have also done, especially other aetherists. >http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/02/0506/0506-cyclicuniverse.htm >http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/ > >Best, >Oleg Feynman lectures were part of my physics education, and shaped my enquiring attitude. If Feynman was alive today, he'd be celebrating Rado. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-869-1022002327-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 17:31:30 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.81]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LHVTE19708 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:31:29 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-869-1022002327-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 17:32:07 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 17:32:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 20626 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 17:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 17:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 17:32:01 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.191]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01932 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 12:31:59 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020521102820.01a54a80@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:28:20 -0700 Subject: [UCP-List] UCP SITE UPDATE Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 I did a little work on the UCP web site, renaming to Universal Conscious Practice on the main menu. I also did a light edit on N-Lightenment Now! with name change and some typos cleaned up. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-870-1022003275-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 17:47:18 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LHlHE04020 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:47:17 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-870-1022003275-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 17:47:55 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 17:47:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 68655 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 17:47:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 17:47:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 17:47:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 17:47:53 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020521010145.01a60e20@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:47:52 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > Existence of aether is VITAL to explaining action-at-a-distance. > > Without a medium, there can be no waves. > > Even children can understand that! Objections on a few points. 1) Action at distance. This assumes there's distance and there's cause-and-effect sort of a relationship. We cannot ever see causation (except, perhaps, our own), we can only see correlations. Worse yet, the distance concept might be misguided. It is possible to describe light so that it does not propagate at all. It's a very counterintuitive theory (Twistor theory), but it works and it is equivalent to our usual electromagnetic theory. 2)There can be waves without medium. For instance a computer simulation of water waves. There's no medium that carries waves, just pixels on the screen. What does matter for wave-like behaviour is that *Nearby* points behave in a certain correlated way (called Wave equation) 3)Why electromagnetic field itself is not a good enough medium for you? You can say it is EM field that waves, that would be perfectly fine. By definition it has exactly the right properties to carry light and other stuff. The difference between EM field and mechanical aether is ascribed things like density and pressure, while EM fields just has an internal state (called 4-potential),while density, pressure and so on are derived from that. 4)If you have such a problem with action at distance, please explain how neighbouring parts of aether know about each other's existence.There must be something that links them otherwise there won't be any correlated behaviour. > > >> It's back and working better than ever. > >> > >> What is GONE are bent space, telepathic particles, > >> time going backwards, big bangs and other insanity. > > > >What the "bent space" actually means in down-to-earth terms (and here > >is a nice link to UCP , to keep this discussion on-topic) is that to > >diffeernce between HERE and THERE depends on the way you compare. For > >instance you need to carry something form there to here. In general > >the result depends on how you do that. That's all. Classic Physics > >blatantly ignores such subtlety, and thus, as far as I am concernd, > >is more insane than general relativity. > > Classic Physics produced E=MC^2 First of all, Classic (newtonian) physics doesn't even have C. It deems the speed of light neither special nor constant. What are you talking about is Maxwellian Electrodynamics. It is only deemed "classical physics" because it was invented before Einstein. Electrodynamics is 100% compatible with Relativity, in fact Relativity follows from it. On the other hand, Newtonian physics is incompatible with electrodynamics. The Einstein's feat was not inventing e=mc^2 (which was indeed known to Poincare and Lorentz) but applying the insights gained from electrodynamics to mechanics. By the way, do you actually KNOW what explanations were given to E=mc^2 before and after Einstein? And why do you think they are fundamentally different? > > Einstein just stole it and invented an insane explanation for it. > > >As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, > >notthing more. For instance, General gravity can be reformulated > >without any reference to curved space-time and, vice versa, the good > >old Newtonian gravity can be described as a bent space theory (which > >was done by Elie Cartan in 1930's). > > Rado explains gravity quite simply. > > CHECK IT OUT! Does he give any quantitative predictions? Especially in the places where there are very precise experimental tests (gravitational light bending, orbits of heavenly bodies etc)? > > >Similarly, QM notices that what we know affects what we see. Or that > >division of the world in parts such as here and there, the observer > >and the observed, is largely arbitrary. > > And invents insane explanations for it. It doesn't. That's pretty much the bottom of it. You can try to add explanations but that'd not be QM , that'd be an interpretation of QM. Of course we would need to put this all in a nice mathematical form to be able to make calculations, but that's a technical matter. > > >If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable > >entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might look > >like weird magic effects. Again I believe QM is way more sane than > >the old-school Newtonian approach. > > But I'm not comparing QM to Newton. > I'm comparing it to Rado's aether theory. My understanding is that Rado attempts to emulate QM effects by using mechanical aether, which is itself a newtonian object (like liquids or solids). He specifically uses the word "Fluid Dynamics". Fluid Dynamics is a special case of Newton's theory. > > >As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't > >feel qualified to discuss it. > > OK. I'm not either. > > But if you are going to tell me the entire > universe was compressed into zero space, > . . . I'll tell you . . . GO INTO COMEDY! Noone says, "zero space". What *is* said that way back universe had much bigger density than now. Of course it had infinite volume, just as it does now (However, volume of universe is not a very well defined concept to begin with) Since the current theories break down at some ultra-high density values, it's unknown what happened before some point. By the way there are a few alternatives to big bang currently under discussion. I have posted an URL recently. Btw, I am rereading rado's site with a fine comb now and I have a few comments , which I'll post when I am done. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-871-1022004040-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 18:00:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.88]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LI03E15509 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 18:00:03 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-871-1022004040-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 18:00:40 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 18:00:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 33006 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 18:00:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 18:00:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 18:00:38 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4LHxtj26434; Tue, 21 May 2002 17:59:55 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020521002440.00b7b660@net-prophet.net> Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:59:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [UCP-List] OH FUCK! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 On Tue, 21 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 00:24:40 -0700 > Abner writes: > At 01:01 AM 5/20/2002 +0000, you wrote: > >On Sun, 19 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > >> Homer has ACT logged forever, but I > >> don't know how to get it from his server. > > > >Send him fifty bucks for a "Web-server shell account" ? > > Fifty Bucks! > > That's more than I've spent on > food in the last three months! You've GOT to keep things in PERSPECTIVE. Which is more important, connectivity or food? > >I gather that would give you unrestricted access to his news feed. > >I don't know how he works his archives. . . > > Homer is a dead issue. Pretty much dead meat, too. The bugs are eating him alive. And when they go away he gets fried with electric currents. He appears to be in constant restimulation. > >Fifty bucks ;( > > Way out of my ballpark right now. Well then, just wait 'till you are flush again, and then if you haven't found another way to access the old stuff, subscribe under a different handle, long enough to download what you want, and then cancel the account. > >Yeh, that's a bummer. News readers, ALL of them that I ahve seen ALL > >want to do that. They really index the articles by an arbitrary number, > >and that number is, of course, different for each news service. > > Fucked me up on the learning curve! It happens to everyone. It happened to me when I called that borsen.dk server. Nothing would work. But Unix is fairly bulletproof. Thousands of great minds have devote a lot of time and talent for many years to make it that way. I just DELETED the configuration file. It built a new one without complaint. The stuff I had saved was safely out of its reach. The only thing that was lost were the "read" marks. If I had cared about those, I might have been able to repair the config file, but I didn't. > >Well, if you want to know, you could browse the Agent directory (where > >it stores it's files) and see if they are still there. > >That's problemo numero uno. If they ARE there, say thanks to whatever > >deity you may believe in (or not) and move them all to a new directory. > > There's *LOTS* of stuff there . . . I just can't > read it and I don't know if its garbage or not. > > >Then start fresh and see if you can get a new list from Homer's free ACT > >news server. That would be my strategy. > > Yes. I'm looking for a reliable news server to start with. OK > >It sounds like Agent is easily confused and due to the above, that is > >understandable. I would guess that it is trying to make requests to one > >news server based on lists from another news server, and that just > >doesn't work. > > OH! This could be vital info! > > Maybe teranews.com is OK? You could try again. One thing you have to watch for is that one of the ways the config file can trash ist to mark all the articles "READ". Then you can't see them, even though they are really there. See if you can find out how to mark all the articles "UNREAD". > It appeared to me that MOST of the > articles on homer's server were NOT > at teranews. DID I FUCK UP THERE? previous > >> >> As it stands today, I have > >> >> ZERO news access, and > >> >> NO access to my last few > >> >> years of work threaded. > >> >> > >> >> I don't know if it's totally gone, > >> >> or I just can't see it right now. > > > >It MIGHT be able to build a new list from the files in a new directory > >IF the old list (which doesn't work anymore) is removed or re-named. > >The point is to minimise confusion by separating old files from new > >ones. And start fresh with a new default directory. > > Yes. I understand that now. > I was a total idiot and didn't > back up because I thought > I had a recent backup. You may still be OK. > >Worry about that later -- after you get up and running again with > >current news. > > Yes! That is the correct order of importances. > > >You might have a winmodem. ;( > >They don't work with Linux. > >Either get a real modem, external is best, or recently there ARE > >attempts to make free software to run winmodems on Linux. > >But you don't have time to fuck around with that. Even if it works it > >will be a pain, and you will spend much too much time on it. > > Already! > > >The mouse is an Xwindow problem. Somehow Xwindow doen't have the right > >info. I've never heard of a mouse that can't be configured. At the worst > >case you might need to get a new mouse for 20 bucks that is PS2 or MS > >compatible. But again I haven't seen a mouse that won't work on Lin. > > I don't even know what Xwindow is. Xwindow is the graphics program that Linux runs to give you all those pretty pictures so you can mouse around clicking on what you want to do instead of entering commands on a command line a la DOS. > My Logitech trackball is not listed in my Mandrake Linux install. > The mouse part works ok now, but no scroll wheel. You might try a google search at: www.google.com/linux with the search terms: logitech linux if you don't find anything you can assume that it will work if you can tell the configuration the proper TYPE of mouse. There are only a few types to cover dozens of brands. If you DO find something, it may be of some use. > >> >> I WANT IT TO THREAD THE ARTICLES! > >> >> An unthreaded news reader has NO clue! > >> > >> >Tin will thread or un-thread the articles. I believe the articles are > >> >stored in the order they are received. Then the software scans the > >> >headers and makes an index. Using the index information only it can > >> >present the articles to the user in whatever arrangement he requires. > >> > >> Good. I think Homer uses Tin, but > >> his articles never come up threaded. > > > >???? > > I assumed he would thread > if the software let him. > Silly assumption. ???? again. We are not connecting here. Please re-read the previous paragraph. The news server does NOT thread articles. I believe they are stored on the server in the order received, and served that way to the client as default. The newsREADER (client) is responsible for arranging (threading) the articles. > It's WONDERFUL for posting, threading, > finding articles, and lots of other stuff. I > ONLY hate it when it loses all my data! Understood. I have another friend who says he only hates his wife when she's out fucking the neighborhood, otherwise she's great. > >Maybe someone has written a conversion program. But you will be better > >off in the long run to get them in open format. > > Yes! NO MORE COMPRESSED FILES FOR ME! > > It's *INSANE* to worry about compression > when I have 60 gigs on just one hard drive. Yes, of course. The days of 40 MB hard disks are long gone. If you want to save transfer time you can zip them. But that's not a danger since you still have the unaltered original. I regard it as dangerous to backup with zip. one bad bit may make them unrecoverable. > Thanks for writing! > > I appreciate your perspective! It's mutual! > KP abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-872-1022011444-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 20:03:28 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LK3RQ03033 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:03:27 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-872-1022011444-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 20:04:05 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 20:04:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 5379 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 20:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 20:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 20:04:03 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4LK3J802337; Tue, 21 May 2002 20:03:19 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020521102023.01a66d08@net-prophet.net> Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:03:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RE::Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 On Tue, 21 May 2002, Net Prophet wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 10:20:23 -0700 > From: Net Prophet > At 04:06 PM 5/21/2002 -0000, you wrote: > >--- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > > >> > > >> > As far as something actually bending, that is a visual metaphor, > >> > >> Yes. All these maps are metaphors. Unless mathematics is here before > >> God, mathematics is a metaphor too. The fact that much of the > >physical > >> world "follows" mathematical models, sometimes nearly persuades me > >that > >> mathematics is "discovered" rather than invented. (One can discover > >a > >> giraffe. Only God can invent one). > > > >I don't think it's all that surprising, given we tend to alter our > >models until they fit what we see. What is surprising is that, unlike > >many of our other theories, mathematics is very self-consistent. > > Yes. > > >> My present view is that models, mathematical models, are maps, > >metaphors > >> which have beauty or utility insofar as they are useful: in > >explaining, > >> understanding, and predicting phenomena. And in doing such with > >economy > >> of means. These are the terms of argument that I find useful, not > >> rightness or wrongness. Newtonian physics is not "wrong"; it is > >useful > >> within the domain in which it maps to the territory. There happens > >to be > >> a territory to which it will not map. > > > >Exactomundo :) There's another point. A physical theory usually > >employes one (or more) intuitive models, that help to figure out what > >is going on without actually solving the equations. Bent space, > >smeared particle, aether are all such models. These can be very > >helpful as a way to quickly evaluate the situation and as a guide in > >further research. > > Yes. > > A model should be understandable, > or it does NOT create understanding. > > >Oftentimes, however, you can have drastically different models that > >are 100% equivalent mathematically. Quantum mechanics, for example, > >has at least a dozen interpretations. > > All of which appear to be INSANE MYSTERY. > > You can plot physics theories on the tone scale. > > >> The only insanity I see is to confuse the map with the territory. > >> All maps are not territory; no map is territory > > > >Here'll be extravagant and disagree. (This doesn't have a lot to do > >with the rest of discussion, tho) > >What is map made of? What is the difference between a map and > >anything else, say, a rubber duck? > > > >If we treat something as a map of something else, it becomes a map. > >If we treat a rubber duck as a map of London, it will become a > >(crude) map of London, as far as you are concerned. The difference is > >in your attitude, not in some inherent properties of maps and > >territories. > Yes. Well, would you rather use yr rubber duck to navigate London, or my handy-dandy Street Map of London, which I will sell you for the paltry price of one pound? Why? For my own use I would prefer the handy-dandy, because I can easily find a correspondence between points on the map and points of what I am pleased to call the territory. One inch on the map equals one-half mile of territory. If the handy-dandy says I am six blocks from Bond St. and I walk the six blocks, lo and behold, there is a street sign that says Bond St. With the rubber ducky you might eventually arrive at Bond St., but if so it would not be by virtue of a map, but through some other means; blind luck, perhaps, or interrogating a passer-by, or flagging down a taxi. > The map can be examined as a thing-in-itself, > in which case it is NOT actually a SYMBOL. > > >> > If we ignore this and pretend that the world is a solid immutable > >> > entity and we have nothing to do with it then what we see might > >look > >> > like weird magic effects. > >> > >> Well said! > >> > >> This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a > >modification of > >> God. > > > >I am not sure what you are getting at here. Sorry, I jumped levels here. I was pointing to the spiritual effects certain models produce. The "we have nothing to do with it" model, in the social and psychological sphere is poisonous. It puts its believers at effect, at victim, at irresponsible. Spinoza says whatever happens is Providence. He criticizes scripture (or rather interpretations of scripture) as wrong, but this too is the mind of God. He, Spinoza, is at Cause, not effect -- because all effects are apprehended by Spinoza as proceeding from God. So I guess what I am getting at is the models people use, are trained up in or collect have tremendous effect on the quality of their life. So a second criticism of rubber ducky as model, besides its lack of point-to-point correspondence, is its triviality. ------------ (QM and Rado discussion snipped) > >> Brian Greene has written on this. The first third of his book is a > >> resume on the history of physics. The last of it an account of > >string > >> theories. There's lots of info on the web, and the book is > >marvellous. > > > >Yes, I know his works. You might also want to read very nice book by > >Lee Smolin called "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity". It gives nice > >ovberview of what has been done, not only in string theory but in > >other approaches as well. > > READ RADO! > > >> > As of big bang heory, it's a a domain of astrophysics, and I don't > >> > feel qualified to discuss it. > >> > >> Me neither -- as a scientist. As a philosopher, I will echo > >Spinoza. A > >> modification of God, fundamentally no more impressive, no more > >> miraculous than the explosion of an acorn into a mighty Oak. > > > >Just a couple of weeks ago a new theory (based on Strings) came out > >that seemingly provides a viable alternative to Big Bang cosmology. > >Not enough expertise to evaluate it but, here it is: > > Rado slaughters big bang theory and predicts > red shift as a consequence of "tired light", which > others have also done, especially other aetherists. > > >http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/02/0506/0506-cyclicuniverse.htm > >http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/ These are great links! Thanks! > >Best, > >Oleg > > Feynman lectures were part > of my physics education, and > shaped my enquiring attitude. > > If Feynman was alive today, > he'd be celebrating Rado. > > > KP abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-873-1022019885-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 22:24:08 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.74]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LMO7V20955 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 22:24:07 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-873-1022019885-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 22:24:45 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 22:24:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 46575 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 22:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 22:24:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 22:24:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 22:24:43 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020521102023.01a66d08@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:24:43 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > Yes. > > A model should be understandable, > or it does NOT create understanding. Which, in turn, depends on what one is already familar with. Rado is familiar with gases, I am much more familiar with computers than with gases, so I prefer models that are similar to computers (such as TQFT I mentioned) > > >Oftentimes, however, you can have drastically different models that > >are 100% equivalent mathematically. Quantum mechanics, for example, > >has at least a dozen interpretations. > > All of which appear to be INSANE MYSTERY. Mystery , perhaps, to people who are unfamiliar with them, but pretty clear to people who work with them. Counterintuitive, yes, but behavior of atoms *is* different from behavior of humans-scale objects. Are you familiar with any of them? > > You can plot physics theories on the tone scale. That'd hightly dependent on the tone of the person who does the plotting, as well as the way the theory was explained to him. For instance, the same Newton's theory can be explained as "F=ma", the way Newton himself did, or through the "Principle of Least action" ala Lagrange and Hamilton. Completely different attitudes, yet it's the exactly same theory. > > Yes. > > The map can be examined as a thing-in-itself, > in which case it is NOT actually a SYMBOL. Glad you underfstand that, because some people don't =) > The MATH is COMPLETELY severable from > the insane complex *MYSTERY* theories. > > The sane model predicts the same math. The advantage of sanity is that it produces workable results where insanity doesn't. That's how you tell them apart. If 2 models produce exactly the same math then they are observationally 100% indistinguishable and the choice between them is a matter of taste, not sanity. For instance I have mentioned Newtonian and Hamiltonian formulation of classical mechanics. If you take a real world situation and apply either approach to it, you'll get exactly same results. However, there are situations where each approach is easier to deal with. Newton's is easier when you ask "What the thing is going to do next?", Lagrange's is easier when you ask "What is the long-term behaviour of the system?" Additionally, Lagrange's approach is way more general. It is easily applicable to systems that are not strictly mechanical (such as electromagnetic fields). > > >There's also Quantum Field Theory(QFT) - an application of Quantum > >Mechanics to fields (that is things that fill entire space). Here > >situation is paradoxical: QFT is *known* to be non-consistent, yet it > >gives amazingly precise answers (like one part in quadrillionths). > >String theory, in part, is an attempt to clean up the > >inconsistencies. QFT is known not to be universally applicable, but > >the situations where it breaks down are beyond our reach at the > >moment. > > Rado derives plank's constant from his theory, > as well as MANY other things, and *SOLVES* > MANY of the inconsistencies of insane theory. Derivation of h is not really a big deal because it is dependent on you choice of units. You can even make it 1, which is what people often do to save typing. What really matters is dimensionless constants (such as ratio of circumference of circle to its diameter, i.e Pi) One such famous example is a so-called fine structure constant, which basically describes how strong electrical charges interacts with electrical field. It's around 1/137 . If we can explain why it is that number and not some other, we are getting somewhere. > > >Standard Model is the collection of known facts about sub-atomic > >particles, such as quarks and electrons. It includes Electroweak > >theory and Quantum Chromodynamics, both are types of QFT. Standard > >model is ugly and gross, yet it is in a very good agreement with the > >experiment (with a couple of notable glitches!). It's an evolving > >thing and people hope to make it less ugly. By all indications > >Standard Model is not the final word. > > > >Quantum foam. > >There are 2 versions of quantum foam. Both are parts of the effort to > >apply quantum mechanics to gravity. Since noone knows how to work out > >a full quantum gravity theory, these are very speculative entities > >indeed. > > RADO *EASILY* EXPLAINS GRAVITY! > > >The original idea (originating in late 19th century, by the way) is > >that at a very small scale the space is not at all like the nice > >Euclidean space we all know and love. The microscopic structure might > >turn out to be very complex indeed, perhaps resembling a higher- > >dimensional version of a foam. > > At the size level of the individual aether particles, their > statistically averaged "wave" character does not apply. But it does apply to real particles. See Feynman lecture on physics vol.3. By now technology has advanced enough to use quantum wave properties of individual particles. Recently it has been used even to perform simple computations. If technology keeps advancing as fast as it does in a few years we'll have a device that can kick ass of any modern supercomputer. Also there are certain experiments that put huge problems in front of any theories that try to explain quantum effects as a consequence of internal structure of particles and perhaps some waves that accompany them. (which, it seems Rado does) For instance, you can find out if someone is eavesdropping on your fiber-optic line even if the eavesdropper does not see any signal come through. Also there's the famous Bell inequality (verified by quite a few experiments), where quantum correlations are created simultaneously in 2 separated places (i think it's up to a mile now). Moreover the tests are designed in such a devilishly clever way that it distinguishes between *any* side-effect of a complex structure of the particles (with aether ripples around them or anything) and a true non-local quantum correlation. It takes about a page of math to prove that it indeed works that way, but it's nothing but high-school vector algebra and trigonometry. It's one of the most beautiful pieces of reasoning out there. > > >The other version of quantum foam is called "spin foams" or > >Topological Quantum Field Theory (TQFT). It's a very strange beast. > >Basically it represents space as a sort of a network. Or one can say > >that every piece of space functions like a quantum computer. When you > >allow the computer to change with time, you get a sort of a foam. > >This is one of the most developed alternatives to the string theory, > >but it too has many hurdles to overcome. > > Such as being totally non-comprehensible mystery ronsense. Comprehensible to me, since I have studied some material on quantum computing. In fact I find it absolutely amazing that gravity behaves exactly like a quantum computer. It'd be a shame if that turns out to be just a fluke. The main problems with that approach (AFAIK) is to find general rules that tell us how this networks correspond to our high-level world of space, time, matter and energy. So far only a few special cases has been investigated. This is in part because we don't have yet a good theory and practical knowledge of quantum computing, at least nothing like the usual computer science with its 50+ years of experience. And our actual working quantum computers have only 1 quantum byte of memory :( But I am sure that'd change soon enough. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-874-1022022489-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue May 21 23:07:32 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4LN7VL26948 for ; Tue, 21 May 2002 23:07:31 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-874-1022022489-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 23:08:09 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 May 2002 23:08:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 36768 invoked from network); 21 May 2002 23:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 May 2002 23:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 May 2002 23:08:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 May 2002 23:08:07 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:08:05 -0000 Subject: RE::Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > Well, would you rather use yr rubber duck to navigate London, or my > handy-dandy Street Map of London, which I will sell you for the paltry > price of one pound? > You just don't know how to read rubber ducks. > Why? Because the art is almost lost, being much much harder than reading ordinary maps. But seriously, folks, maps are simply objects that similar enough to the object you want to find out about, as to be a suitable substitute. You use maps when when you are not able to look at the thing it depicts.Note the similarity to below 0 tone scale. Above 0 you can still use them for aesthetic purposes (like artsy paintings), but you don't regard them as maps. > > For my own use I would prefer the handy-dandy, because I can easily find > a correspondence between points on the map and points of what I am > pleased to call the territory. One inch on the map equals one-half mile > of territory. If the handy-dandy says I am six blocks from Bond St. and > I walk the six blocks, lo and behold, there is a street sign that says > Bond St. No, it's the other way around. Actually London is a map of the handy- dandy piece of paper in your hands. If you see that six-blocks down the road is a street sign saying "Bond St.", you can mark off six- blocks on that piece of paper, lo and behold, there's a white strip with "Bond St." printed on it. Just by walking around you can easily find any colored block on that paper you are holding! amazing isn't it? :) > > With the rubber ducky you might eventually arrive at Bond St., but if so > it would not be by virtue of a map, but through some other means; blind > luck, perhaps, or interrogating a passer-by, or flagging down a taxi. > Didn't they tell you "As above, so is below" an dthat macrocosm is reflected in microcosm? If you look at the ducky hard enough you can clearly distinguish Big Ben an driver Thames :) > > >> This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a > > >modification of > > >> God. > > > > > >I am not sure what you are getting at here. > > Sorry, I jumped levels here. I was pointing to the spiritual effects > certain models produce. The "we have nothing to do with it" model, in > the social and psychological sphere is poisonous. It puts its believers > at effect, at victim, at irresponsible. By that model your feeling of responsibility and free will is just a consequence of mechanical process in your brain or whatever. It's all predetermined by the Immutable Laws. Don't like this model at all. But that is also predetermined. > > Spinoza says whatever happens is Providence. He criticizes scripture (or > rather interpretations of scripture) as wrong, but this too is the mind > of God. He, Spinoza, is at Cause, not effect -- because all effects are > apprehended by Spinoza as proceeding from God. > > So I guess what I am getting at is the models people use, are trained up > in or collect have tremendous effect on the quality of their life. > > So a second criticism of rubber ducky as model, besides its lack of > point-to-point correspondence, is its triviality. Stretch the ducky to cover the entire city and then bend it to fit all buildings. If we forget about physical limitations for a moment, it can be done. Here's your correspondence. The point is that it is not what things *are* that makes them maps, but what *you* have to *do* with them to make them fit each other. People started to realize this about 50 years ago, but it didn't quite reach the mainstream yet. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-875-1022026174-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 00:08:57 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.64]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4M08uI15619 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 00:08:56 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-875-1022026174-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 00:09:34 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 00:09:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 79406 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 00:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 00:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 00:09:32 -0000 Received: by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4M08mp03833; Wed, 22 May 2002 00:08:48 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:08:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 On Tue, 21 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:24:43 -0000 > From: punkfloyd.rm [KP:] > > Such as being totally non-comprehensible mystery ronsense. > > Comprehensible to me, since I have studied some material on quantum > computing. In fact I find it absolutely amazing that gravity behaves > exactly like a quantum computer. It'd be a shame if that turns out to > be just a fluke. I think it was last week or two that it was announced that, yes, gravity operates in discrete non-continuous jumps. Oh dear, my childhood fantasy of life as a stop-motion animation, has gathered some believers. . . > The main problems with that approach (AFAIK) is to find general rules > that tell us how this networks correspond to our high-level world of > space, time, matter and energy. So far only a few special cases has > been investigated. This is in part because we don't have yet a good > theory and practical knowledge of quantum computing, at least nothing > like the usual computer science with its 50+ years of experience. And > our actual working quantum computers have only 1 quantum byte of > memory :( But I am sure that'd change soon enough. Memory!? Memory!? Who needs any stinkin memory? I can clone a trillion agents to search the universe. First one to find Xenu stick up yer hand! > Best, > Oleg Most exciting. Best, abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-876-1022037402-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 03:16:04 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.68]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4M3G4h01069 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 03:16:04 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-876-1022037402-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.197] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 03:16:42 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 03:16:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 5750 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 03:16:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 03:16:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 03:16:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 03:16:40 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 65.94.206.110 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 03:16:38 -0000 Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > On Tue, 21 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:24:43 -0000 > > From: punkfloyd.rm > > [KP:] > > > Such as being totally non-comprehensible mystery ronsense. > > > > Comprehensible to me, since I have studied some material on quantum > > computing. In fact I find it absolutely amazing that gravity behaves > > exactly like a quantum computer. It'd be a shame if that turns out to > > be just a fluke. > > I think it was last week or two that it was announced that, yes, gravity > operates in discrete non-continuous jumps. Where did you hear that? I haven't seen it on any newsgroups or newssites that I read. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-877-1022046961-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 05:55:24 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.104]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4M5tNJ21741 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:23 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-877-1022046961-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 05:56:01 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 05:56:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 18330 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 05:56:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 05:56:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 05:56:00 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4M5tG904378; Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:16 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: Content-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 05:55:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 >From olegd@strategyfirst.com Wed May 22 05:47:49 2002 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 03:16:38 -0000 From: punkfloyd.rm Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > On Tue, 21 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > I think it was last week or two that it was announced that, yes, gravity > operates in discrete non-continuous jumps. Where did you hear that? I haven't seen it on any newsgroups or newssites that I read. Best, Oleg ---------------------- Well, here it is (if the attachment comes through) Best, abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-878-1022047498-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 06:04:20 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.106]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4M64JJ27383 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:04:19 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-878-1022047498-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 06:04:58 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 06:04:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 49743 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 06:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 06:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 06:04:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4M64DA21679; Wed, 22 May 2002 06:04:13 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 06:04:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by otaku.freeshell.org id g4M64JJ27383 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 2nd try. The attachment got stripped. ab abner@sdf.lonestar.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From olegd@strategyfirst.com Wed May 22 05:47:49 2002 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 03:16:38 -0000 From: punkfloyd.rm Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > On Tue, 21 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > I think it was last week or two that it was announced that, yes, gravity > operates in discrete non-continuous jumps. Where did you hear that? I haven't seen it on any newsgroups or newssites that I read. Best, Oleg ---------------------- Well, here it is (if the attachment comes through) Best, abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org [1][nsu;pos=left;sz=120x60] [spacer_white.gif] [2][nsu;pos=top;abr=!NN2;sz=468 x60;ord=07893195?] [spacer_trans.gif] [3]nature science update updated at midnight GMT [spacer_white.gif] search nature science update ____________________ go [4]advanced search [spacer_white.gif] news [5]nature home [spacer_trans.gif] content [spacer_trans.gif] [6]news [7]features [8]by subject [9]conferences [spacer_trans.gif] services [spacer_trans.gif] [10]send to a friend [11]printable version [12]ealert [13]search [14]help [15]feedback [spacer_trans.gif] information [spacer_trans.gif] [spacer_trans.gif] [16]about the site [17]about us [spacer_trans.gif] supported by [18]amersham [spacer_trans.gif] Gravity leaps into quantum world Researchers finally measure the subtle quantum effects of fourth fundamental force. 17 January 2002 [19]TOM CLARKE [apple_160.jpg] Particles don't fall smoothly under gravity, they lurch. © Pictor/Photodisc Far from falling smoothly, objects moving under gravity do so in lurching, quantum leaps, a French experiment has revealed^[20]1. The finding confirms that gravity, like the Universe's three other fundamental forces, can have a quantum effect. Particles, such as electrons confined to their orbital shells around the nucleus of an atom, are restricted by the rules of quantum mechanics. To move from one position to another, they must jump to the next quantum state. Theoretically, this rule holds for all matter under the influence of nature's four fundamental forces: electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear force and gravity. But gravity, especially at small scales, is a very feeble force, making it extremely difficult to measure its quantum effects. There's no point in looking for quantum behaviour in everyday objects. It is occurring, but the larger things become, the more subtle are the quantum effects. Even small molecules are practically immune to the weird ways of the quantum world. Valery Nesvizhevsky and his colleagues studied ultracold neutrons (UCNs) at the Laue-Langevin Institute in Grenoble, France. These very slow-moving, uncharged particles normally team up with protons to form the nucleus of an atom. The team isolated the neutrons from the effects of the other three forces in a specially designed detector. By following the progress of hundreds of UCNs falling from the top of the detector to the bottom, the team found that the particles exist only at certain heights. "They do not move continuously, but rather jump from one height to another as quantum theory predicts," says Nesvizhevsky. That someone has measured quantum leaps has physicists wide-eyed. "The effects are so small it is remarkable that they can actually observe them," says Thomas Bowles, a particle physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. Trick questions This satisfying trick may also have profound implications for the future of physics. "Right now, we don't have a theory of how gravity is created," says Bowles. If refined, he says, apparatus like Nesvizhevsky's could explain how gravity behaves in the quantum world - and perhaps where it comes from. We don't have a theory of how gravity is created Thomas Bowles, Los Alamos National Laboratory "If you're searching for something in fundamental physics, this is a very clean system," agrees Nesvizhevsky. It should allow researchers to pick apart some of the niggling questions about the fundamental properties of matter. It might even be possible, suggests Bowles, to work out why Einstein's theory of general relativity - which explains gravity and large things, such as galaxies and the Universe - doesn't tally with quantum mechanics, the physicist's handbook of the very small. [spacer_trans.gif] [spacer_trans.gif] References 1. Nesvizhevsky, V. V. et al. Quantum states of neutrons in the Earth's gravitational field. [21]Nature, 415, 297 - 299, (2002). © Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2002 related stories [spacer_trans.gif] o [22]Exorcising Einstein's spooks 29 November 2001 [spacer_trans.gif] o [23]Sun to help try relative values? 30 March 2001 [spacer_trans.gif] o [24]What's the matter with gravity? 18 August 2000 [spacer_trans.gif] o [25]Where did all the gravity go? 1 November 1999 [spacer_trans.gif] o [26]Measuring gravity with an atomic fountain [spacer_trans.gif] links out [spacer_trans.gif] o [27]Exploring gravity [spacer_trans.gif] [spacer_trans.gif] more news [spacer_trans.gif] o [28]Oldest fossil footprints on land 30 April 2002 [spacer_trans.gif] o [29]Early birds have big eyes 30 April 2002 [spacer_trans.gif] o [30]Stars are promiscuous 29 April 2002 [spacer_trans.gif] [31][question1.gif] [spacer_trans.gif] References Visible links 1. http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/nsu.nature.com/nsu;pos=left;sz=120x60 2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/nsu.nature.com/nsu;pos=top;abr=!NN2;sz=468x60;ord=07893195? 3. http://www.nature.com/ 4. http://www.nature.com/nsu/search.html 5. http://www.nature.com/nsu/index.html 6. http://www.nature.com/nsu/news.html 7. http://www.nature.com/nsu/features.html 8. http://www.nature.com/nsu/categories/bysubject.html 9. http://www.nature.com/nsu/conferences/conferences.html 10. javascript:void(0); 11. http://www.nature.com/nsu/nsu_pf/020114/020114-8.html 12. http://www.nature.com/nsu/ealert/ealert.html 13. http://www.nature.com/nsu/search.html 14. http://www.nature.com/help 15. http://www.nature.com/nsu/feedback/index.html 16. http://www.nature.com/nsu/profiles/aboutsite.html 17. http://www.nature.com/nsu/profiles/aboutus.html 18. http://www.apbiotech.com/ 19. http://www.nature.com/nsu/profiles/aboutus.html#clarke 20. file://localhost/arpa/ag/a/abner/tmp.html#1 21. http://www.nature.com/doifinder/10.1038/415297a 22. http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-15.html 23. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010404/010404-2.html 24. http://www.nature.com/nsu/000824/000824-1.html 25. http://www.nature.com/nsu/991104/991104-4.html 26. http://www.nature.com/nsu/990826/990826-1.html 27. http://www.curtin.edu.au/curtin/dept/phys-sci/gravity/index2.htm 28. http://www.nature.com/nsu/020429/020429-2.html 29. http://www.nature.com/nsu/020429/020429-3.html 30. http://www.nature.com/nsu/020429/020429-1.html 31. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=8559599265 Hidden links: 32. http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/nsu.nature.com/nsu;pos=left;sz=120x60 :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-879-1022082169-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 15:42:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MFgBR13848 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:42:11 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-879-1022082169-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 15:42:50 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 15:42:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 3294 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 15:42:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 15:42:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 15:42:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 15:42:48 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:42:48 -0000 Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > 2nd try. The attachment got stripped. > Thanks for the article! Turns out I did see it before and there has been an extensive discussion of it on usenet. So I can give some info on what is it about. The cool part of the experiment is that these guys managed to control neutrons with such an immense precision. That's very neat. However it is not a demonstration of quantum gravity, it is only a demonstration of quantum nature of neutrons. The situation is "semi- classical" - the neutrons behave as quantum particle-waves, while gravity behaves as a usual Newtonian force (not quantized or anything). When any wave is affected by a force it can form a "standing wave". This phenomenon is responsible for the sound of our own voice. Here we see neutrons forming standing waves under the influence of gravity. It's a neat demonstration of the principle but doesn't say anything about gravity. The school formula: Gravity Force = mass * gravity_acceleration (9.8 m/sec^2) is quite sufficient to explain the effect. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-880-1022085314-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 16:34:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.102]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MGYZP03303 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:34:35 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-880-1022085314-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.193] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 16:35:14 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 16:35:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 2912 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 16:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 16:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 16:35:13 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4MGYS620672; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:34:28 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:34:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 On Wed, 22 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:42:48 -0000 > From: punkfloyd.rm > --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > 2nd try. The attachment got stripped. > > > > Thanks for the article! > > Turns out I did see it before and there has been an extensive > discussion of it on usenet. So I can give some info on what is it > about. > > The cool part of the experiment is that these guys managed to > control neutrons with such an immense precision. That's very neat. > However it is not a demonstration of quantum gravity, it is only a > demonstration of quantum nature of neutrons. Hmmmm. And when an apple falls off a tree, this demonstrates nothing about the nature of gravity, but rather of the nature of apples? ;) I usually understand "gravity" as merely the attraction between bodies proportional to their mass and distance. The concept of "gravity" is no more necessary than the concept of "aether" - although it may be a linguistic convenience. So, is it possible to explain the result of this experiment as the quantum nature of the neutrons includes a tendency to change mass or distance? Perhaps your attribution of this phenomena is due to your intuition that it's inconceivable to imagine "gravity" to change its mass or location? >The situation is "semi- > classical" - the neutrons behave as quantum particle-waves, while > gravity behaves as a usual Newtonian force (not quantized or > anything). When any wave is affected by a force it can form > a "standing wave". This phenomenon is responsible for the sound of > our own voice. Here we see neutrons forming standing waves under the > influence of gravity. >It's a neat demonstration of the principle but > doesn't say anything about gravity. It seems to require that "gravity" has a wave nature, no? > The school formula: > Gravity Force = mass * gravity_acceleration (9.8 m/sec^2) > > is quite sufficient to explain the effect. > > Best, > Oleg Thanks for your comments, Oleg. I grope toward understanding. . . ab abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-881-1022085377-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 16:35:40 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.71]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MGZdP04007 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:35:39 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-881-1022085377-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.94] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 16:36:18 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 16:36:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 39574 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 16:36:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 16:36:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 16:36:15 -0000 Received: by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4MGZUu24526; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:35:30 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:35:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [UCP-List] Crab Nebula - Neutron Star Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 I snarfed a couple pages and couple x-ray images, a diagram, and an animation and put them on my web site, for the time being. Some of the links are broken - i.e. relative rather than absolute, however some important ones do work - and will take you to more information. All this was motivated by looking at Rado's diagram. It reminded me of the flows in this neutron star, which I am still not sure about. Is there a bi-directional flow along the axis? http://sdf.lonestar.org/~abner abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-882-1022085709-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 16:41:12 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.99]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MGfBP09720 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:41:11 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-882-1022085709-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.195] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 16:41:50 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 16:41:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 37881 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 16:41:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 16:41:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 16:41:48 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.219]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA12564 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 11:41:46 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020522093808.00bf16d0@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:38:08 -0700 Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 At 03:42 PM 5/22/2002 -0000, you wrote: >--- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: >> 2nd try. The attachment got stripped. >> > >Thanks for the article! > >Turns out I did see it before and there has been an extensive >discussion of it on usenet. So I can give some info on what is it >about. > >The cool part of the experiment is that these guys managed to >control neutrons with such an immense precision. That's very neat. >However it is not a demonstration of quantum gravity, it is only a >demonstration of quantum nature of neutrons. The situation is "semi- >classical" - the neutrons behave as quantum particle-waves, while >gravity behaves as a usual Newtonian force (not quantized or >anything). When any wave is affected by a force it can form >a "standing wave". This phenomenon is responsible for the sound of >our own voice. Here we see neutrons forming standing waves under the >influence of gravity. It's a neat demonstration of the principle but >doesn't say anything about gravity. The school formula: > >Gravity Force = mass * gravity_acceleration (9.8 m/sec^2) > >is quite sufficient to explain the effect. > >Best, >Oleg Rado EASILY explains gravity with no disassociated quantum nonsense. Given ONLY the existence of the ideal gas aether, he stunningly demonstrates the evolution of physics. The ronsense theories are completely unnecessary. KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-883-1022089169-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 17:38:52 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.66]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MHcpi04395 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 17:38:51 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-883-1022089169-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 17:39:30 -0000 X-Sender: abner@sdf.lonestar.org X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 17:39:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 54433 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 17:39:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 17:39:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sdf.lonestar.org) (207.202.214.132) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 17:39:27 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g4MHchY27962; Wed, 22 May 2002 17:38:43 GMT To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Abba Noor MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:38:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: re:RE::Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 On Tue, 21 May 2002, punkfloyd.rm wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:08:05 -0000 > From: punkfloyd.rm > --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > > > > Well, would you rather use yr rubber duck to navigate London, or my > > handy-dandy Street Map of London, which I will sell you for the > paltry > > price of one pound? > > > > You just don't know how to read rubber ducks. > > > Why? > > Because the art is almost lost, being much much harder than reading > ordinary maps. > > But seriously, folks, maps are simply objects that similar enough to > the object you want to find out about, as to be a suitable > substitute. > You use maps when when you are not able to look at the thing it > depicts.Note the similarity to below 0 tone scale. Above 0 you can > still use them for aesthetic purposes (like artsy paintings), but you > don't regard them as maps. > > > > > For my own use I would prefer the handy-dandy, because I can easily > find > > a correspondence between points on the map and points of what I am > > pleased to call the territory. One inch on the map equals one-half > mile > > of territory. If the handy-dandy says I am six blocks from Bond St. > and > > I walk the six blocks, lo and behold, there is a street sign that > says > > Bond St. > > No, it's the other way around. Actually London is a map of the handy- > dandy piece of paper in your hands. If you see that six-blocks down > the road is a street sign saying "Bond St.", you can mark off six- > blocks on that piece of paper, lo and behold, there's a white strip > with "Bond St." printed on it. Just by walking around you can easily > find any colored block on that paper you are holding! amazing isn't > it? :) > > > > > With the rubber ducky you might eventually arrive at Bond St., but > if so > > it would not be by virtue of a map, but through some other means; > blind > > luck, perhaps, or interrogating a passer-by, or flagging down a > taxi. > > > Didn't they tell you "As above, so is below" an dthat macrocosm is > reflected in microcosm? If you look at the ducky hard enough you can > clearly distinguish Big Ben an driver Thames :) > > > > > >> This would be the opposite to Spinoza: all events are a > > > >modification of > > > >> God. > > > > > > > >I am not sure what you are getting at here. > > > > Sorry, I jumped levels here. I was pointing to the spiritual effects > > certain models produce. The "we have nothing to do with it" model, > in > > the social and psychological sphere is poisonous. It puts its > believers > > at effect, at victim, at irresponsible. > > By that model your feeling of responsibility and free will is just a > consequence of mechanical process in your brain or whatever. It's all > predetermined by the Immutable Laws. > > Don't like this model at all. But that is also predetermined. > > > > > Spinoza says whatever happens is Providence. He criticizes > scripture (or > > rather interpretations of scripture) as wrong, but this too is the > mind > > of God. He, Spinoza, is at Cause, not effect -- because all effects > are > > apprehended by Spinoza as proceeding from God. > > > > So I guess what I am getting at is the models people use, are > trained up > > in or collect have tremendous effect on the quality of their life. And I don't get, in Spinoza, that *anything* is predetermined. Except of course what has "already" been determined, which would be the Laws of Nature. But man's will is free. (I don't recall at the moment how, or if, Spinoza explains it). For me it's an article of faith; not even that, a postulate. I *claim* freedom of will. Whether I really have it or not, I can never know, since I can't get outside the system to find out. God has the same problem, I'm sure. ;) > > So a second criticism of rubber ducky as model, besides its lack of > > point-to-point correspondence, is its triviality. > > Stretch the ducky to cover the entire city and then bend it to fit > all buildings. If we forget about physical limitations for a moment, > it can be done. Here's your correspondence. What are you saying? A piece of paper is not a map either, no more than a rubber ducky. You can *make* a map out of either: by drawing lines and labels on the paper, or, as you point out, by making a rubber mold of the city. In either case, whether you choose to regard the paper or the ducky as maps and London as the territory, or vice-versa, there is a correspondence of points - but the points are not identical. They inhabit different dimensions. You can build a new road or bulldoze a block of buildings to make a park and your map no longer fits. But you can change your map all you like and the city will very likely not comply. So on those grounds, I usually regard the city as territory and the paper as map, and not v.v. Call it mental habit if you will. ;) A map is an abstraction, a representation of that which is on a more fundamental level. If one looses sight of this insight the consequence can be serious indeed. There's a guy on ACT who is trapped in his own abstractions. By day he has the most lofty, elevated, and beautiful thoughts. By night he is attacked by hideous worms and bugs that eat his flesh. When he manages to chase the bugs away, he is fried and roasted by electric currents. And his physical health is shot. If he does not make a couscious effort to breathe, he starts to suffocate. He is an extreme example of most of humanity, taking his mental representations as reality itself. Losing sight of his process of abstration, and eventually control of it. In short, he is engulfed in his hallucination. > The point is that it is not what things *are* that makes them maps, > but what *you* have to *do* with them to make them fit each other. > People started to realize this about 50 years ago, but it didn't > quite reach the mainstream yet. Well, I'll grant that you can make them fit each other, to some extent, and perhaps instantaneously. But don't forget the dynamism of the territory, that does not belong to the map. Once the map begins to steal dynamism from the territory, watch out! The *conscious* use of this is what separates genius from madman. > Best, > Oleg Best, ab abner@sdf.lonestar.org :) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-884-1022096620-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 19:42:44 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.100]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MJgif23260 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:42:44 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-884-1022096620-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 19:43:41 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 19:43:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 55519 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 19:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:43:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 19:42:48 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:41:26 -0000 Subject: re:RE::Re::Re: [UCP-List] Equanimity and Acceptance Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > What are you saying? A piece of paper is not a map either, no more than a > rubber ducky. You can *make* a map out of either: by drawing lines and > labels on the paper, or, as you point out, by making a rubber mold of > the city. In either case, whether you choose to regard the paper or the > ducky as maps and London as the territory, or vice-versa, there is a > correspondence of points - but the points are not identical. They > inhabit different dimensions. Now, for some philosophy with a big dose of logic: (feel free to skip if the following seems to be too heavy-handed) My point was that it is *correspondence* which is important, not thepoints themselves. There are myriads of correspondences that one can draw across different objects, mental entities, perceptions and pretty much everything that one encounters. There are very complex correspondences (say, between a poem and emotions it invokes), and straightforward ones (between an elephant and its trunk). There are even trivial ones: between anything and itself. There's a very neat point that the correspondences can be combined. For example: London->paper map->mental image. The cool thing that almost everything can be encoded in the *patterns* of those correspondences. It does not matter what those correspondences link, as long as the patterns remain. For instance your statement about rubbed ducky can be represented as There is NO correspondence between London and your mental images which can be drawn as London->rubber ducky->mental image IMHO human mind is just a huge network of those correspondences. UCP tends to make these messy [obligatory on-topic-content]. By comparing the links we can "unstick" them from each other. If two entities coprrespond to exactly same things the exactly same way then they are identical. If not, then not. (end of heavy-duty logic) > > You can build a new road or bulldoze a block of buildings to make a park > and your map no longer fits. But you can change your map all you like > and the city will very likely not comply. So on those grounds, I usually > regard the city as territory and the paper as map, and not v.v. > > Call it mental habit if you will. ;) > > A map is an abstraction, a representation of that which is on a more > fundamental level. If one looses sight of this insight the consequence > can be serious indeed. There's a guy on ACT who is trapped in his own > abstractions. By day he has the most lofty, elevated, and beautiful > thoughts. By night he is attacked by hideous worms and bugs that eat his > flesh. When he manages to chase the bugs away, he is fried and roasted > by electric currents. And his physical health is shot. If he does not > make a couscious effort to breathe, he starts to suffocate. He is an > extreme example of most of humanity, taking his mental representations > as reality itself. Losing sight of his process of abstration, and > eventually control of it. In short, he is engulfed in his hallucination. That'd be good ol' Homer Smith, right? One of the wisest and sanest persons to ever post on A.C.T., IMHO. I know not a lot of a people agree with that statement, but that's OK :) Too bad he is such a whiner. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-885-1022096885-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 19:47:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MJl8f26786 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:47:08 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-885-1022096885-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.96] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 19:48:05 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 19:48:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 68229 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:48:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 19:48:04 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:48:02 -0000 Subject: [UCP-List] Re: Crab Nebula - Neutron Star Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 --- In ucplist@y..., Abba Noor wrote: > I snarfed a couple pages and couple x-ray images, a diagram, and an > animation and put them on my web site, for the time being. > > Some of the links are broken - i.e. relative rather than absolute, > however some important ones do work - and will take you to more > information. > > All this was motivated by looking at Rado's diagram. It reminded me of > the flows in this neutron star, which I am still not sure about. > > Is there a bi-directional flow along the axis? Yes. Rotating neutron stars usually have it. As far as I can remember it is a non-newtonian (i.e. relativistic) effect that occurs when a lot of stuff falls onto a very dense spinning object. A very beautiful photo indeed. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-886-1022097011-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 19:49:15 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.69]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MJnEf28183 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 19:49:14 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-886-1022097011-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.201] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 19:50:11 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 19:50:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 68754 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 19:50:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 19:50:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 19:50:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 19:50:10 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020522093808.00bf16d0@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 19:50:10 -0000 Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: KP, You don't know QM, do you? > > Rado EASILY explains gravity with > no disassociated quantum nonsense. It is nearly not as scary as you think it is. > > Given ONLY the existence of the ideal gas aether, > he stunningly demonstrates the evolution of physics. > > The ronsense theories are completely unnecessary. Geeeez. You see scientology everywhere. Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-887-1022097717-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 20:01:01 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.75]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MK10f07545 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:01:00 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-887-1022097717-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 20:01:58 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 20:01:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 3060 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 20:01:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 20:01:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 20:01:56 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.171]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14696 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:01:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020522125810.00d74d70@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020522093808.00bf16d0@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:58:10 -0700 Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 At 07:50 PM 5/22/2002 -0000, you wrote: >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: >KP, > >You don't know QM, do you? Not well at all! I have read a few short popularizations, as well as Rado's decisive evisceration of the general concepts and themes. "Counter-intuitive" usually means one must assume things that can be easily disproven by casual observation. You don't know Rado, do you? :-) He knows QM very well! As well as the rest of the history of physics! >> Rado EASILY explains gravity with >> no disassociated quantum nonsense. >It is nearly not as scary as you think it is. Endless figure-figure about absurd assumptions is not scary at all to those lost in THINK. >> Given ONLY the existence of the ideal gas aether, >> he stunningly demonstrates the evolution of physics. >> The ronsense theories are completely unnecessary. >Geeeez. You see scientology everywhere. > >Best, >Oleg I see awareness levels quite frequently, and ronsense is a well-know parallel to some of the MYSTERY nonsense of QM. Flubbard did NOT invent QM, if you though I was implying that. :-) KP ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-888-1022098555-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 20:14:58 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.72]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MKEvl18922 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:14:57 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-888-1022098555-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.199] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 20:15:55 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 20:15:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 19448 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 20:15:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 20:15:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 20:15:52 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.171]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA17015 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:15:44 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020522131123.00d78200@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:11:23 -0700 Subject: [UCP-List] N-LIGHTENMENT NOW! Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by otaku.freeshell.org id g4MKEvl18922 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 N-LIGHTENMENT NOW! WHAT THE BUDDHA SOUGHT IS FOUND! THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PRACTICE! +++++++++++++++++++++ INTRODUCTION TO UCP +++++++++++++++++++++ [REV: 20 MAY 2002, AKA: TECHTALK #00] [Earlier versions were titled TechTalk #23.] ============================================= THIS ARTICLE IS THE PRECISE INSTRUCTION FOR RAPIDLY RAISING YOUR OWN AWARENESS, NOW! ============================================= N-LIGHTENMENT IS THE PROGRESSIVE [N BECOMES N + 1] AND RAPID [TODAY!] ENLIGHTENMENT ACHIEVED BY *DOING* UCP! The basic principle for its creation was clearly stated in 1552, as a one sentence aside in a famous forty-page political treatise: "There are always a few, better endowed than others, who feel the weight of the yoke and cannot restrain themselves from attempting to shake it off: these are the men who never become tamed under subjection. ===================a cosmic clue!======================== These are in fact the men who, possessed of clear minds and far-sighted spirit, are not satisfied, like the brutish mass, to see only what is at their feet, but rather look about them, behind and before, and even recall the things of the past in order to judge those of the future, and compare both with their present condition. ====================================================== These are the ones who, having good minds of their own, have further trained them by study and learning. Even if liberty had entirely perished from the earth, such men would invent it. For them slavery has no satisfactions, no matter how well disguised." From: "Discours de la Servitude Volontaire" Written By: Éttiene de la Boétie, age 22, in 1552, while a student at the University of Orleans, France Translated by: Harry Kurz AbridgEdit by: Frederick Mann Text & Info at: http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl06.shtml =============================================== UCP IS THE FULL DEVELOPMENT AND APPLICATION OF THAT FUNDAMENTAL UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE TO RAPID ENHANCEMENT OF PERSONAL AWARENESS! =============================================== INTRODUCTION TO UCP: HOW TO DO UCP! The Universal Conscious Practice [UCP] is a profoundly simple and extremely powerful consciousness or awareness enhancement process, procedure or practice which improves emotional-mental-spiritual ability and can be done by almost anyone . . . with ONLY the information in this article. It can be done with another person as your Witness, or all by yourself, which is easier with the free Virtual Witness program. This article is written from the point of view of a Witness coaching a Seeker, but UCP is also a self-guided practice. See references at end of this article for download URLs. UCP is so radically simple that people often dismiss it with no testing because they incorrectly imagine something must be complex to be powerful and effective. In fact, just the opposite is true. The more complex a methodology or procedure is, the more limited and narrow it becomes, the less utility it has, and the faster you must throw it away and find another practice that still has "bite" or effectiveness to make further progress. UCP gives results from the beginning, and keeps on giving more and better results as long as you continue to practice it. Each new session builds on the awareness of all those preceding it. SEEING things exactly AS THEY ARE, without any additions, filters, alterations or denials, is THE basic curative process. UCP directly develops your ability to SEE * WHAT IS * NOW. Every discharge or trauma reduction process is merely a way of getting the Seeker to SEE THE PRESENT, AS IT IS. Seeing things as they are allows you to actually change them. The more a process limits what the Seeker looks at, the more limited it is. UCP is the basic meta-process or underlying supra-set of ALL workable therapy or self-improvement: the fundamental basis of rational thought itself. I am well aware this is a huge claim: ============== DO UCP & SEE! ============== THE CIRCLE OF NOW UCP is a procedure that starts in the present, circles repeatedly about it, and ends in a new present. It brings to consciousness what is actually [although unconsciously or unknowingly] already in the present, examines it thoroughly, and either dissolves it into nothingness, replaces it, or puts it back where it truly belongs. UCP can be represented by a very simple circular diagram with PRESENT in the middle, FUTURE ahead, PAST behind, and COMPARE PRESENT TO actions on right and left sides: 1] FUTURE 4] COMPARE 0] PRESENT 2] COMPARE TO PAST TO FUTURE 3] PAST The process starts in the middle with Step 0. Then it goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3 . . . around the outer ring, til it ends in the middle at 0 again. Here are the UCP questions, what they do, and how they work: INSTANT UCP INSTRUCTIONS: STEP# QUESTION ================ 0] WHERE ARE YOU NOW? [Describe PRESENT scene to satisfaction.] 1] WHERE MIGHT YOU BE? [Describe FUTURE scene to satisfaction.] 2] COMPARE THAT TO NOW. [Describe Similarities and Differences to satisfaction] 3] WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? [Describe PAST scene to satisfaction.] 4] COMPARE THAT TO NOW. [Describe Similarities and Differences to satisfaction] IT'S AS EASY AS A, B, C: A] START WITH STEP 0 B] REPEAT STEPS 1-4 TO "KNOW" C] END WITH DISCUSSION AND AGREEMENT DETAILED EXPLANATION OF PRACTICE STEPS 0] WHERE ARE YOU NOW? [Describe PRESENT scene to satisfaction.] I just ask "Where are you now?" If a new Seeker, I explain that this is their opportunity to look at their entire life and scene and examine anything important about it. We are not listing anything or looking for whys or causes or solutions or anything like that. It's just a Look, See and Say about where they are now. "Where" is interpreted in the most general way. I often used to say "Tell me about your universe," or "What's up with your life?", but it seems more logical and consistent to go with the past/present/future model, and it works just fine either way. It's the same question as "What's happening with you?", "Tell me all about it!", "How is it going?", "What is your attention on?", "What do you think about now?", "What is your intention now?" "What's up?". "What is your viewpoint?", or any of many other phrases which mean essentially the same thing. After the Seeker gets the hang of UCP, they don't care what you say because they know what they are doing. It's what the Seeker does that is important, not what the Witness says. You could simply say "Talk!" . . . and in fact I have done that too. A new Seeker may well talk for two hours about his entire life. A Seeker who already had a session this morning will probably give me a minute or two about what he has noticed since his last session. I don't care. He talks until he has looked at "Where he is now" and described it to his own satisfaction, not mine. This orients him to the present, creates a starting point for him to compare other scenes to, and makes his universe clearer. 1] WHERE MIGHT YOU BE? [Describe FUTURE scene to satisfaction.] This is the POTENTIAL, FUTURE, IMAGINE, MOCK-UP, CREATIVE side of the process. It is not a tightly worded or narrowly construed question. You could probably just as well ask "What might happen?," "Imagine a possible future," or anything similar. The words are not critical as long as you understand what you are doing. I merely want him to create or notice some possible or even impossible future. It does not have to make immediate sense or even be actually possible. I just want him to fish something out of his universe and look at it. Whatever the Seeker thinks of is fine with me. Anything he imagines is a proper answer. It could be a state of mind, an emotional state, a mental attitude, a spot on the highway, a physical position, a logical computation, a social position, a role he plays, etc.. It can be 10,000 years in the future, impossible by definition, in his wildest dreams, in another dimension, in a parallel or non-parallel universe . . . whatever. An unwritten Star Trek adventure is fine! It can be the same fantasy he's looked at 20 times already. Great! I don't care. Anything will do! His attention is on it NOW . . . so it MUST be the right thing to look at! I don't even care if it is really from the future or not. I often have the Seeker tell me a place he "might be," and in the process of describing or comparing it . . . he realizes it is actually an incident from his past. Fine! He snuck up on a REGRESSION by putting it in the future to make it more confrontable! Of course, that is also a possible future place, as he might be there again some day. You might notice this selection method is very similar to traditional "free association," except that traditional therapists don't know what to DO with what comes up. I once had a session in which "Where I Might Be" was the dream I had this morning . . . and analyzing the dream by comparing it to where I was now was profound, and took me all the way up to "know" in a huge area of my universe that was making me very frantic. Notice that this same dream might also have come up on the past leg of "Where I Was, this morning." Often it seems random whether something comes up on the Future or Past command. Who Cares? As long as it comes up, it's there . . . so you can now LOOK at it! This future leg of the process helps the Seeker discover his future, or lack thereof. It allows him to create new futures, and to change his mind and revise them. It lets him separate his goals, fantasies and possibilities from the actuality of his present time, and see how his future, or lack thereof, is actually created by him in the NOW. This is simple and easy because you are not trying to figure out what the Seeker should put his attention on, and when he should take it off. You don't have to find, assess or analyze mysterious stuff in the dusty far corners of his mind to pick a minute obscure topic or "item." You just gently help him look at whatever IS NOW. Since that is all that is needed, anything additional would be an unnecessary complexity and distract the Seeker from his important work. The less the coach / therapist / Witness does, and the less attention the client / Seeker has on him, the better UCP works. If the Seeker is so absorbed he forgets the Witness is there . . . Wonderful! This description of "where he might be" could be 2 words . . . or 20 minutes. I don't really care, as long as the Seeker describes it to his satisfaction. When he is ready to look at something else, we go on. 2] COMPARE THAT TO NOW. [Describe Similarities and Differences to satisfaction] This step has the Seeker compare the selected "something" with the present. I don't use the word "place," because I don't want to define what he will be comparing. I don't know if it will be an attitude, a computation, a physical location, an activity, an emotion, a state of mind, a beingness, an identity, or whatever . . . and I don't care. Whatever he talked about on Step 1, I just want him to compare that to NOW . . . which may still be what he described Step 0 . . . but quite likely has changed considerably since then. By "COMPARE," I am asking for SIMILARITIES and DIFFERENCES, but I only ask for them specifically if I am grooving in a new Seeker who is not used to UCP and is still feeling his way into it, or who may be reluctant or inhibited in talking. Otherwise "compare" is fine. This step could be two sentences, or it could take two hours as he looks back and forth between the two scenes over and over again, seeing more and more clearly, and describing things in more and more detail and texture . . . until he loses interest in this. In order to compare the two elements, the Seeker essentially has to view both pictures, incidents, viewpoints or whatever at the same time. This in itself is extraordinarily beneficial to him. Most people's awareness is much like a television set displaying a station selected by a remote control . . . in someone else's hands. They are totally hypnotized by whatever program, picture, valence, identity, advertisement, idea, etc. is currently displayed on screen. They compulsively identify with whatever that is as "themselves". When the picture flips to a different channel, it's still "them," as far as they are concerned . . . and they have *NO* awareness that it's actually a different channel and program. They can only duplicate or comprehend one viewpoint at a time, and it's totally beyond their awareness that they were just spouting a totally different party line. The constant discipline of comparing builds the ability to view two viewpoints, pictures, etc., at the same time. This forces them OUT of the picture they have been IN, and gets them to adopt the viewpoint of the being who is looking AT the pictures. This DIFFERENTIATES them from the pictures they have been compulsively dramatizing, and are now self-determinedly viewing. If their attention is on only one item, they can interiorize into it and BE it. When they confront two pictures and compare, it is very clear that they are neither one, but the viewer of pictures. This is an enormously important spiritual capacity to develop. It builds enormous self-awareness of the Seeker as the creator of his own universe, and greatly enhances his ability to knowingly create himself and his future. This simple ability is far beyond the realm of most "Ostensibly Together" or "Spiritually Progressed" individuals, who are actually thoroughly interiorized into a hysterical compulsive identity they strenuously dramatize. While doing UCP, you will see all kind of mental phenomena, known variously in different disciplines as circuits, valences, disorders, engrams, implants, dramatizations, attitudes, compulsions, identities, incidents, computations, etc., turn on with a vengeance . . . and turn off again with no fancy process commands, no chains of earlier similar incidents, no long tricky assessments of what is wrong or what to do, no complex risky listing actions, and no Seeker attention on the Witness or the Process. It's simple, smooth, often easy, and incredibly effective. Just let them describe similarities and differences as long as they have interest. It might be a few words. It might be many minutes of analysis and cognitions. You don't have to worry about "flattening" it or getting "all the charge off." If the Seeker has more attention on it, his attention will go back to it, and he can simply look at it again on the next merry [or not so] go-round. You do NOT have to "control his attention" and tell him when to think about what, and when to stop thinking about it. You controlling his attention is always DESTRUCTIVE to HIS universe. You just easily and naturally follow his lead to what HIS attention is on. When he is satisfied he has seen what he wants to . . . we move on. 3] WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? [Describe PAST scene to satisfaction.] This step of the process simply has the Seeker select something already existing that his attention is on. It is not critically worded. You could probably run it as "Remember something" or "What has happened?". This just asks for anything from his past. He simply selects something for examination from what has already happened, and is therefore PAST, and he is relatively the EFFECT of. It could be how his morning has been going so far, his reaction to a commercial, an exact specific incident lasting 1/10 of a second, a lingering thought he had 85,000 years ago as he lay dying, a room he used to live in, or a broad general scene that went on for trillions of years. I don't care. This leg of the process is the EMOTIONAL DISCHARGE or TRAUMA REDUCTION aspect of prior events. It includes as subsets all of the narrowly defined regression processes that many "well-trained" therapists know hundreds of. It handles and heals what has already happened to the Seeker as effect. It leads naturally to the FUTURE. 4] COMPARE THAT TO NOW. [Describe Similarities and Differences to satisfaction] This is the exact same compare question as in the first leg of the process, and operates similarly, but compares the present with the past, fixed, effect aspect of the Seeker's universe, rather than the future, imagine, cause, create, potential aspect of it. The constant motion back and forth between the legs of the process keeps him from getting stuck in the past and dramatizing himself as hallucinatory total victim, and from getting stuck in fantasies of the future and dramatizing himself as hallucinatory total victor, or vice versi. If the Seeker is heavily in DENIAL or DISASSOCIATION, it will start to build CONNECTIONS between past, present, and future. If the Seeker is in IDENTIFICATION, comparing past and future to present separates them. It creates awareness of similarities and differences . . . a basic definition of sanity. It pulls the past out of the present, and lets it go to where it should be . . . back into the past. It separates the Seeker more and more from the past into a clearer and more sharply defined and understood present time. The constant comparing to "where he is now" keeps bringing him into the present. The entire process works as a "Havingness" process, giving him an entire universe to have. The net effect of UCP is to help him SEE THE PRESENT, MORE CLEARLY, AS IT *IS*. This allows him to actually change his present, with a new thought. BUMPS IN THE ROAD The ONLY thing I have ever seen go "wrong" using UCP is that it stirs up "stuff" from the past and the Seeker starts to *UNKNOWINGLY* DRAMATIZE that stuff. Of course, it is SUPPOSED to do that, but some times it turns on too hard. This can manifest in many different ways: protest, "overrun," complaints, natter about the Witness, computations of "this is stupid", "isn't working", "won't work", "can't work," ANY kind of misemotion, and so forth. This can interfere with DOING the process and STOP the session if the Witness does not SEE what is happening and correct it by simply having the Seeker LOOK at what is going on. The major handle is simply to SEE that "where the Seeker IS NOW" is NO LONGER where he WAS when he started the session. The process itself has moved something else in, or moved him to a different place [take your pick of wordings for the same event]. You simply need to IDENTIFY where that new [old] place, feeling, computation, effort, intention, identity or so forth . . . IS *NOW*. ANY kind of question focussed on WHERE THE SEEKER IS NOW will point to and bring that out. If the Seeker's attention goes OFF of his universe and ON to you, session complaints, or something else, you simply need to get him to LOOK at what is happening NOW. ASK HIM: "WHAT IS HAPPENING?" "HOW ARE YOU FEELING?" "WHAT'S GOING ON?" "TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT!" . . . or ANY other similar question that points his attention to HIS PRESENT [the center of the circle in our diagram] and gets him to LOOK AT, SEE, and DESCRIBE where *HE* is NOW. THIS RE-ORIENTS HIM TO HIS *ACTUAL* PRESENT ACTIVITY. Usually if there is some kind of "problem" the Seeker will be talking about SOMETHING ELSE but him which is causing effects. You need to get his attention OFF of what something ELSE is doing or might be doing or not and ON to what HE is DOING, RIGHT NOW! Instead of him telling you about SOMETHING ELSE, he needs to tell you about HIM, NOW! For example, someone who is raging at you that ....... [insert favorite person, condition, ghost, demon, polical party, job, etc] ...... is causing ........ [insert what he doesn't like or is sure to happen in the future, etc] ........ you need to get him to look at WHAT *IS* RIGHT NOW untiI HE SEES . . . *HE* IS RAGING! THEN YOU HAVE A NEW STARTING POINT, IN A NEW NOW. Once you have identified WHAT is happening NOW in the session, you can use your understanding that this IS coming from somewhere else in his past universe, has been stirred up or manifested by the process as part of its normal operation, and simply needs to be addressed. Use your SECRET WEAPON and ask him the MAGIC QUESTION: "EVER FELT LIKE THAT BEFORE?" or any variation of that simple question. Usually the answer is "YES!" and he tells you all about the PAST time or place, and you simply proceed as usual with "COMPARE THAT TO NOW." So the ENTIRE "correction" action when something goes "wrong" [i.e. "TOO right"] is: 1] Witness recognizes Seeker is SOMEWHERE "ELSE" NOW. 2] Witness gets Seeker to tell him WHAT is happening NOW. 3] Witness gets Seeker to SPOT WHERE it comes from in the PAST. 4] Witness has Seeker proceed normally by COMPARING to present. *ONLY* TWO QUESTIONS ARE REQUIRED FOR THIS "REPAIR": "NOW?" and "PAST?" In theory, the Seeker might be unable to function because of something from the FUTURE that was about to happen. In practice, I haven't ever seen it, and I suspect that some one who is bleeding to death or about to be arrested does not usually wind up doing UCP unless it's to look AT THAT. "NOW?", phrased as in any of the examples above, simply has the Seeker LOOK AT what he is doing NOW in session, instead of BLINDLY DOING it. It is simply a *NEW* STEP 0! "PAST?", phrased as "Ever felt like that before?", or any other variation appropriate to the Seeker's answer to the "NOW?" question, is simply a variation of "Where have you been," phrased to pick up whatever has just been stirred up by the process. So the ENTIRE bag of "tricks" necessary to "fix" a difficult session can be summed up . . . not in 20 different repair lists with hundreds of different questions to figure-figure about. . . but in TWO WORDS: NOW? PAST? If you can just remember this VERY SIMPLE concept, then if you start to have difficulty in a session, you can VERY SIMPLY correct fit. It is NOT complex. It MAY, however, be . . . extremely difficult! IF YOU KEEP IT SIMPLE, AND KEEP *DOING* IT, UCP WORKS AMAZINGLY WELL AND RAPIDLY. Above are the procedure commands. Below is the overall session pattern: A] START THE SESSION WITH STEP 0 This identifies the present situation or scene, serves as a locational or orientation, and starts the process working. B] REPEAT STEPS 1-4 TO "KNOW" You are not looking for a sudden "cognition." You want to cycle through Steps 1-4 over and over again until the Seeker comes up to "know" in the area of the session. He will not even know what area or topic the session is about until the end. On the way there, he will definitely be at "not know" or lower about the entire session, both what it is about and how it will resolve. If the Seeker THINKS he knows what the session is about at the beginning, that is simply hallucination. Don't fight with it. Just let it happen. The Seeker simply has to work through his hallucinations. You do *not* assess for or pick a topic and then "run" a session "on" that topic or "item". That will NOT work well. There will be some theme, topic or area the entire session is about, but you will not likely know what it is until it emerges at the end of session, when the Seeker comes "full circle" to his first concerns and gets up to "know" in that area of his universe. If you have "problems" . . . handle with "NOW?" and then "PAST?"! As the Seeker achieves more familiarity with UCP, he will naturally STOP "doing it by the numbers" and gradually ease into simply looking at what is there. He will then only need a question when he "runs down" and isn't SURE what he should be looking at NOW. The "by the numbers" approach is essentially a TRAINING AID. C] END WITH DISCUSSION AND AGREEMENT When the Seeker gets up to know, it will be apparent to both of you. He will know what the session was all about. It will be clear to both of you that the entire session was about this one issue, even if it seemed like a random rancid stew of unrelated free[dis]association nonsense along the way. At the end, he will usually give you an indication that he feels he is done with the session, and why. This is the appropriate time for discussion about how the session went, what his emotional tone is, how the proctice is going for him, questions and answers, observations about his life or life in general, or whatever comes up. Often, the Seeker will ask the Witness what he thinks about something. The natural thing to do is . . . Answer! This is the havingness or integraion phase. Having focussed his attention intensively on his own universe for the core of the session, the Seeker will typically broaden his attention to the exterior universes and seek other viewpoints to view and compare with his own now new. As he comes up to the ability of Communication . . . he communicates! This phase might be just two sentences, or twenty minutes of new stuff popping in to see. When you both agree you are done . . . you are done. UCP is NOT a one-session do-once procedure. You practice it over and over again on an ongoing basis, integrating it more and more into your continuous consciousness. No one I know has ever used it up yet. As long as you DO UCP, you will continue to raise your emotional tone level and your awareness. As the Seeker becomes more familiar with the practice and what he does in his own universe to make it happen, he will become less and less dependant on commands from the Witness, and will start to run "freestyle". This is an excellent sign and should be encouraged by the Witness . . . shutting up and doing nothing. THE UCP UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PLOT: A *HUGE* HELP IN DOING UCP IS THE CHART OF N-LIGHTENMENT! which is an html document you can use on the screen or print on two sides for a one-page always-on reference what fits in your wallet. It is a UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PLOT, aligning a growing number of individual scales, which allows you to locate your general or chronic level of awarness, [where your attention chronically is], so you can *WATCH* YOUR OWN AWARENESS *RISE* AS YOU *DO* UCP. This is a very powerful factor, for it puts you in charge of your own awareness. IN THE POSITION OF A GOD IN YOUR OWN UNVIERSE, CREATING YOURSELF IN YOUR OWN I-MAGI-NATION. UCP SUMMARY UCP addresses ANY aspect of PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE! It performs the AS IT IS or DISCHARGE function of therapy, as well as the CREATIVE, MOCK-UP role of self-discovery. It addresses WHATEVER the Seeker has stuck attention on, and handles it until the Seeker has NO attention on it. It provides a UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PLOT which helps you understand where you have been *SEE* WHERE YOU ARE *NOW* MUCH CLEARER and prepare yourself for where you are going next! So you can understand it *WHILE* you experience it! WELL . . . I THINK THAT JUST ABOUT COVERS IT! You NOW have a powerful tool to help yourself and your family, friends, and anyone else you wish well. All basic UCP data is completely free at the web site. There is a lot more to learn to become expert on UCP, but that has been done in as little as a few weeks, in much less than 24 hours of actually doing UCP . . . AND UNDERSTANDING THIS ARTICLE ITSELF QUALIFIES YOU TO GIVE YOURSELF A UCP SESSION! . . . RIGHT NOW! The FREE Virtual Witness program makes that much easier! Forget about your figure-figure . . . just *DO* some work on yoursELF! PLEASE *DO* UCP! Best Wishes, WE'LCOME TO *ACTUALLITY!* THANK YOU FORECHOOSING YOUR ROLE IN THE COSMIC DRAMA NOW! RESET YOUR SELF! REBOOT YOUR MIND! RECOMPILE YOUR BIOS REINSTALL RATIONALITY DEBUG AND UPGRADE YOUR OWN OPE'RA'TING SYSTEM . . . RIGHT! NOW! N-LIGHTENMENT *NOW!* YOU'RE JUST TH'OU'GHT AWAY FROM COMING UP Y'OUR WAY. FIND OUT HOW TO *FIND OUT!* WHAT YOU DO IS UP TO YOU! THE WAY TO *SEE* *IS* UCP! *DO* UCP AND SEE! O --- ) \ Konchok Penday Research & Technical W'RIghT'ER Integrator: Universal Consciousness Plot http://net-prophet.net/ucp/chart.htm Formulator and Disseminator of the Universal Conscious Practice: http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ Recipient of the Alex Yakovlev Technical hExcellence Award :-) Flounder & Prophet Gods Church: http://net-prophet.net/gc/ Philosophy & Holistic Health eBook: http://net-prophet.net/tddup/ REvolutionary Architectural System: http://net-prophet.net/subs/ Better Banjo Bureau http://net-prophet.net/bbb/ Cottage Industries http://net-prophet.net/ci/ ########################################### N-LIGHTENMENT! . . . RIGHT! . . . NOW! WHAT THE BUDDHA SOUGHT IS FOUND! YOU CAN LEARN IT FREE TODAY! http://net-prophet.net/ucp/ *DO* THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUS PRACTICE! *COMPARE* PAST AND FUTURE TO PRESENT! YOU CAN RAISE YOUR OWN AWARENESS NOW! USE THE FREE VIRTUAL WITNESS ONLINE NOW! UCP: TRANSFORMING AWARENESS SINCE THE SECOND MILLENNIUM, ONE BODHISATTVA AT A TIME! ########################################### Your KosmiK KicKbacK to KP@net-prophet.net via paypal.com helps others Find, Learn and DO UCP! GET YOUR DUCKS IN A ROW! http://net-prophet.net RE-EVALUATION COUNSELORS: RE-EVALUATE! EXIT COUNSELORS: UCP CURES $CIENTOLOGY! UU + SOMinisters: UCP IS *THE* RATIONAL MIND! UCP USENET POSTS: alt.clearing.technology, and coming soon to an ALT.UCP newsgroup near you! Newsreader = http://forteinc.com/agent/freagent.htm ANONYMOUS POSTS *WELCOME!* USE A NICK! UCP *NEWS SERVER* COMING SOON: ucp.ath.cx "UCP EMAIL LIST" To subscribe to this group, send an email to: ucplist-subscribe@yahoogroups.com UCP POSTS PARTIAL USENET ARCHIVE AT: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ucplist/files/ UCP SITE PARTIAL MIRROR NOW AT: http://www.universalconsciouspractice.bravepages.com/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-889-1022100779-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 20:52:03 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.86]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MKq2l22015 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 20:52:02 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-889-1022100779-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.196] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 20:52:59 -0000 X-Sender: olegd@strategyfirst.com X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 20:52:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 16299 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 20:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 20:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 20:52:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 20:52:58 -0000 To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020522125810.00d74d70@net-prophet.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "punkfloyd.rm" X-Originating-IP: 66.38.219.93 X-Yahoo-Profile: punkfloyd.rm MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 20:52:57 -0000 Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 --- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > At 07:50 PM 5/22/2002 -0000, you wrote: > >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: > >KP, > > > >You don't know QM, do you? > > Not well at all! I have read a few short > popularizations, as well as Rado's decisive > evisceration of the general concepts and > themes. "Counter-intuitive" usually means > one must assume things that can be easily > disproven by casual observation. How often do you casually observe individual atoms? :) Most of Quantum effects in our everyday casual world are very effectively masked by uncontrolled interaction with environment. A stray atom hist your carefully prepared setup, and poof! the effect is gone. That is the most annoying technical factor that prevents quantum computers from getting bigger. It's not that effects are counterintuitive, it's that our direct experience only covers a very narrow range of possibilities. Anything beyond that is bound to feel odd, at least at first. > > You don't know Rado, do you? :-) Amazon says they will have new stocks in 5-6 weeks, Maybe then I'll know better. For now I have to go by his expositions on hios web site and I find them not at all persuasive. And Bell's inequality (experimentally proven!) makes me doubly wary of any theory that purports to explain QM effects in terms of *local* waves, vortices and other complex structures. > > He knows QM very well! > > As well as the rest of the history of physics! > > >> Rado EASILY explains gravity with > >> no disassociated quantum nonsense. > > >It is nearly not as scary as you think it is. > > Endless figure-figure about absurd > assumptions is not scary at all to > those lost in THINK. Absurdity is certainly in the eye of beholder, things are absurd ONLY when compared against something else. Perhaps you should look at both sides and with some analysis, I believe, you'll discover that it is our common-sense which is absurd (or rather, absolutely inapplicable to certain situations). And while quantum physicists certainly do enjoy thinking now and then, but they CREATE new inventions, that often turn out to be helpful. Once again, proof is in the pudding. > > >> Given ONLY the existence of the ideal gas aether, > >> he stunningly demonstrates the evolution of physics. > > >> The ronsense theories are completely unnecessary. > > >Geeeez. You see scientology everywhere. > > > >Best, > >Oleg > > > I see awareness levels quite frequently, > and ronsense is a well-know parallel to > some of the MYSTERY nonsense of QM. I maintain that is a false identification. QM is a few levels above Ron's head, who was debunking calculus in his lectures. He thought calculus is a useless figure-figure. Don't mix up attitudes of people who *describe* QM (or anything else) with the subject itself. Subjects don't have awareness level, because they are not aware things. They are simply data. Anything can become a subject of an idle figure-figure. Tell an ipochondriac about anthrax and he'll worry himself to death. What does it tell about the awarerness level of the anthrax germs? Not much. > > Flubbard did NOT invent QM, if > you though I was implying that. I am glad you know LRH was NOT a nuclear physicist =) Best, Oleg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/JcWolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ucplist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From sentto-6247521-890-1022103161-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed May 22 21:31:45 2002 Return-Path: Received: from n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.92]) by otaku.freeshell.org (8.11.3/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4MLViI01194 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 21:31:44 GMT X-eGroups-Return: sentto-6247521-890-1022103161-abner=SDF.LONESTAR.ORG@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.97] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 May 2002 21:32:41 -0000 X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Apparently-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 22 May 2002 21:32:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 55949 invoked from network); 22 May 2002 21:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 May 2002 21:32:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO handel.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 May 2002 21:32:39 -0000 Received: from cpu ([205.238.61.171]) by handel.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA32015 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 16:32:36 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020522142853.00d07120@net-prophet.net> X-Sender: net-prophet@net-prophet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20020522125810.00d74d70@net-prophet.net> From: Net Prophet MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ucplist@yahoogroups.com; contact ucplist-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ucplist@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:28:53 -0700 Subject: Re: 2::::[UCP-List] Gravity leaps into quantum world (fwd) Reply-To: ucplist@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Oleg wrote: >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: >> At 07:50 PM 5/22/2002 -0000, you wrote: >> >--- In ucplist@y..., Net Prophet wrote: >> >KP, >> > >> >You don't know QM, do you? >> >> Not well at all! I have read a few short >> popularizations, as well as Rado's decisive >> evisceration of the general concepts and >> themes. "Counter-intuitive" usually means >> one must assume things that can be easily >> disproven by casual observation. Oleg: >How often do you casually observe individual atoms? :) Never, so far! >Most of Quantum effects in our everyday casual world are very >effectively masked by uncontrolled interaction with environment. A >stray atom hist your carefully prepared setup, and poof! the effect >is gone. That is the most annoying technical factor that prevents >quantum computers from getting bigger. Damn . . . those cosmic rays! >It's not that effects are counterintuitive, it's that our direct >experience only covers a very narrow range of possibilities. Anything >beyond that is bound to feel odd, at least at first. OK. I forgot who described QM as counter-intuitive. >> You don't know Rado, do you? :-) > >Amazon says they will have new stocks in 5-6 weeks, Maybe then I'll >know better. Email him! He'll send you one right away! CD or printed! I think they are $25 each. He might cut you a deal on both of them? >For now I have to go by his expositions on hios web site >and I find them not at all persuasive. I would hardly expect his teaser articles to be persuasive. The best they can do is INTEREST you in his BOOKS, . . . which I find stunningly complete and compelling. >And Bell's inequality (experimentally proven!) makes me doubly wary >of any theory that purports to explain QM effects in terms of *local* >waves, vortices and other complex structures. OK! I wasn't asking for *ANY* kind of belief, only that you actually examine Rado's model, which he presents in VERY painstaking detail. >> He knows QM very well! >> >> As well as the rest of the history of physics! >> >> >> Rado EASILY explains gravity with >> >> no disassociated quantum nonsense. >> >> >It is nearly not as scary as you think it is. >> >> Endless figure-figure about absurd >> assumptions is not scary at all to >> those lost in THINK. >Absurdity is certainly in the eye of beholder, things are absurd ONLY >when compared against something else. Perhaps you should look at both >sides and with some analysis, I believe, you'll discover that it is >our common-sense which is absurd (or rather, absolutely inapplicable >to certain situations). OK. >And while quantum physicists certainly do enjoy thinking now and >then, but they CREATE new inventions, that often turn out to be >helpful. Once again, proof is in the pudding. OK. But confirmation of the math does not prove the model. >> >> Given ONLY the existence of the ideal gas aether, >> >> he stunningly demonstrates the evolution of physics. >> >> >> The ronsense theories are completely unnecessary. >> >> >Geeeez. You see scientology everywhere. >> > >> >Best, >> >Oleg >> >> >> I see awareness levels quite frequently, >> and ronsense is a well-know parallel to >> some of the MYSTERY nonsense of QM. >I maintain that is a false identification. QM is a few levels above >Ron's head, who was debunking calculus in his lectures. He thought >calculus is a useless figure-figure. Yes. I've heard the lecture. The fact that QM has correct math does not prove the model, which to the best of my understanding *IS* MYSTERY in it's KNOW-ABILITY. I'd *LOVE* to have your analysis of Rado's 400+ page books, which I have gone through line-by-line and am amazingly impressed by! Rado impresses me much more than Feynman! His attitude is very similar, and his comprehension is VASTLY GREATER AND MORE COMPLETE! And I really do love Feynman! >Don't mix up attitudes of people who *describe* QM (or anything else) >with the subject itself. Subjects don't have awareness level, because >they are not aware things. They are simply data. So angels dancing on the head of a pin is a perfectly sane subject to you? Even if the theorists are nuts? >Anything can become a subject of an idle figure-figure. Tell an >ipochondriac about anthrax and he'll worry himself to death. What >does it tell about the awarerness level of the anthrax germs? Not >much. Agreed! >> Flubbard did NOT invent QM, if >> you though I was implying that. > >I am glad you know LRH was NOT a nuclear physicist =) > >Best, >O